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Making Design Useful w Ritesh Gupta (Full)
Welcome to Works In Process w/ George Garrastegui, Jr. / Ep (No episode number)
Ritesh is a Wieden+Kennedy alum, a former director at 2 Shark Tank companies, and specializes in product design, product management, branding, and growth analytics for mission-driven companies.
He recently rebranded and rebuilt Realm a podcast studio on app with Mother Design, Felt Not Heard, and an incredible internal team. It debuted at #1 on the Apples podcast charts and was featured in It's Nice That as well as Print Mag. And Brand New named it one of the top 10 wordmarks and monograms of 2021.
And before that, Ritesh has worked with and for Sagmeister & Walsh, Cooper Hewitt, Disney, and Hungry Harvest. Currently, he’s the Senior Director of New Product Ventures at Gannett/USA Today.
We’ll get into some of that, but I want to focus on his support and championing of the shift in Design, to include more advocacy, accountability, and access. Ritesh has been helping change the landscape with his volunteer work for Where Are The Black Designers? -a nonprofit design advocacy organization.. and with his upcoming venture as Founder of Useful School, A useful, fun, affordable, 10-week product design virtual program catered to the people who needed it. Ushering in more diversity, autonomy, and practicality into the profession.
Enjoy!
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Mentions
Where Are The Black Designers?
Other links Ritesh wants you to know about:
What Does It Mean to Decolonize Design?
Dori Tunstall: Decolonizing Design Practices in Academia (VIDEO)
Even by design - Linda Dounia Rebeiz (Config 2021)(VIDEO)
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Credits
- Edited by RJ Basilio
- Research and Transcription Reviewer: Or Syzflingier
- Intro / Outro Music: The System Has Failed Us - The Passion HiFi
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About the Works In Process w/ George Garrastegui, Jr. Podcast:
A podcast series by George Garrastegui, Jr. — designer, educator, and creative catalyst. Works In Process is a collection of discussions that explore and demystify the creative process. I interview individuals to gain more insight into the ways they work and the projects they produce.
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This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
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Transcript
Welcome to Workin Process, the podcast
George Garrastegui, Jr.:that asks the hows and whys behind creative work. Take a
George Garrastegui, Jr.:ride with me designer and educator George Garrastegui. As
George Garrastegui, Jr.:I learned from my guests, there's no one way to being a
George Garrastegui, Jr.:creative, but endless possibilities fueled by passion,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:determination, and of course process.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:And that was today's guest for Ritesh Gupta for teachers, a
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Wieden Kennedy alum, a former director of two Shark Tank
George Garrastegui, Jr.:companies and specializes in product design, project
George Garrastegui, Jr.:management, branding, and growth analytics for mission driven
George Garrastegui, Jr.:companies who recently rebranded and rebuilt realme a podcast
George Garrastegui, Jr.:studio and app with mother design, felt not heard and
George Garrastegui, Jr.:incredible internal team. It's a beauty number one and Apple's
George Garrastegui, Jr.:podcast charts, and was featured in it's nice that as well as
George Garrastegui, Jr.:print Mac, and brand new named it one of the top 10 word marks
George Garrastegui, Jr.:in monograms of 2021. And before that, reteach worked for and
George Garrastegui, Jr.:with Sagmeister Walsh, Cooper Hewitt, Disney, and Hungry
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Harvest. Currently, he's a senior director of new product
George Garrastegui, Jr.:ventures at Guenette, USA Today. We'll get into some of that, but
George Garrastegui, Jr.:I want to focus on his support and championing of the shift in
George Garrastegui, Jr.:design. To include more advocacy, accountability, and
George Garrastegui, Jr.:access. British has been helping change the landscape with his
George Garrastegui, Jr.:volunteer work at where all the black designers, a nonprofit
George Garrastegui, Jr.:design advocacy organization, and with his upcoming venture as
George Garrastegui, Jr.:founder of useful school, a useful fun, affordable 10 week
George Garrastegui, Jr.:product design virtual program catered to the people who need
George Garrastegui, Jr.:it, ushering in more diversity, autonomy and practicality into
George Garrastegui, Jr.:the profession. or teach. Welcome to the working process
George Garrastegui, Jr.:podcast, man.
Ritesh Gupta:Thanks. Happy to be here.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Yeah, thank you for carving out some
George Garrastegui, Jr.:time of your soon to be very, very busy schedule.
Ritesh Gupta:Thank you. I really appreciate it.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:So I want to get into all your
George Garrastegui, Jr.:branding and design career. But first, let's do a rapid fire q&a
George Garrastegui, Jr.:session. You're ready.
Ritesh Gupta:You got it. Let's do it.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:All right. So first is a series of
George Garrastegui, Jr.:this or that questions?
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Coffee or tea?
Ritesh Gupta:Tea.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Okay, toaster a bagel?
Ritesh Gupta:Bagel. And specifically has to be a plain
Ritesh Gupta:bagel not toasted.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Ooh, plain not toasted? Yeah, I
Ritesh Gupta:got to get a baseline. Whenever I go to New
Ritesh Gupta:York City bagel spots. I have to understand the basics before I
Ritesh Gupta:start putting on a bunch of future Mall. Okay,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:okay, I got you. I got you. Branding or
George Garrastegui, Jr.:product design.
Ritesh Gupta:Oh, come on. Now. They're basically the same
Ritesh Gupta:thing. I'm gonna I'm gonna keep it low. I'm gonna make a little
Ritesh Gupta:spicy. Also, I'll say product design.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Volunteering or founding
Ritesh Gupta:is another difficult one. Because I'm in
Ritesh Gupta:really in the space right now. I would say founding
George Garrastegui, Jr.:cool. RGB or CMYK.
Ritesh Gupta:RGB actually has given me a lot of problems in
Ritesh Gupta:the past, especially when we try to convert it into the printing
Ritesh Gupta:landscape. So I'll keep it also spicy. I'll say CMYK. But my
Ritesh Gupta:first love is RGB. Got it? 5050? A little bit of both. Yeah, a
Ritesh Gupta:little bit of both. And that's on the situation. Got it. Got
George Garrastegui, Jr.:it, of course. And so now quick word
George Garrastegui, Jr.:association, right. So the first thing you hear when you when you
George Garrastegui, Jr.:think of these words, creativity,
Ritesh Gupta:necessary.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Determination.
Ritesh Gupta:For some reason the first word was obvious. Cool.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Business
Ritesh Gupta:as usual.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Failure.
Ritesh Gupta:Welcome.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Community.
Ritesh Gupta:Action.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Education.
Ritesh Gupta:representation,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:mistakes.
Ritesh Gupta:welcomed.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Skills.
Ritesh Gupta:Soft.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:History,
Ritesh Gupta:unlearn.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Opportunity,
Ritesh Gupta:impact.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Accessibility
Ritesh Gupta:required.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Future
Ritesh Gupta:people of color.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:And last but not least, process.
Ritesh Gupta:Roller Coaster.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Nice, nice. I like these both little
George Garrastegui, Jr.:things, because they're kind of instinctual. There's not really
George Garrastegui, Jr.:a time to react, there's just time to answer. I know,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:sometimes we want to make it perfect. But I think some of the
George Garrastegui, Jr.:things are just, it gets us loose before we gonna get into
George Garrastegui, Jr.:really what you're all about. And most of the time when I'm
George Garrastegui, Jr.:interviewing people, right? I don't really know you. And it's
George Garrastegui, Jr.:a way for us to kind of break the ice. So thank you for that.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Right. And so now I think I want to really get into a little bit
George Garrastegui, Jr.:of your origin story. And I want to learn about your introduction
George Garrastegui, Jr.:into art design. Where did you grew up and where you were
George Garrastegui, Jr.:creative or an artsy kid?
Ritesh Gupta:So I grew up in a town called Temecula,
Ritesh Gupta:California, which for some reason is referenced a lot on
Ritesh Gupta:SNL. I don't know why, but they always have references to
Ritesh Gupta:Temecula. So, it feels kind of good, but also reminds me of
Ritesh Gupta:where I grew up. And I actually didn't really like where I grew
Ritesh Gupta:up. There weren't a lot of kids that look like me. I was like
Ritesh Gupta:only one of a couple of brown brown kids, specifically Indian
Ritesh Gupta:Americans all through 12th grade. So it wasn't until UCLA
Ritesh Gupta:where I actually saw a lot more folks that that look like me. I
Ritesh Gupta:was a creative kid. I grew up playing a lot of music. I
Ritesh Gupta:started out playing trumpet, but I use that as a pogo stick, and
Ritesh Gupta:I broke the I broke the bell, and my mom was super pissed. So
Ritesh Gupta:then she said, alright, well, if you want to continue doing
Ritesh Gupta:music, which I wanted to, you're going to have to find another
Ritesh Gupta:instrument. And we're not going to pay for it. So the school
Ritesh Gupta:luckily had an oboe. But everyone in my class was really
Ritesh Gupta:annoyed by the sound I was making from it, because it's
Ritesh Gupta:kind of annoying sound, especially when you're first
Ritesh Gupta:learning but and it gets only really beautiful when you become
Ritesh Gupta:an expert. Then I moved on to bassoon, and the person that I
Ritesh Gupta:had a crush on in middle school was not into that at all. And so
Ritesh Gupta:I moved roughly quickly away from bassoon, and the jazz band
Ritesh Gupta:was actually having auditions for bass guitar. So I switched
Ritesh Gupta:over to bass, played that in jazz band. And then I found a
Ritesh Gupta:really big love for drums. And I've played that up until this
Ritesh Gupta:day, I was in the drumline played competitively doing
Ritesh Gupta:competitions all over California. And I played tenor
Ritesh Gupta:drums specifically, which are these kind of six drums and
Ritesh Gupta:they're about 3040 or so pounds that you were in the front of
Ritesh Gupta:you, but it's really, really hard on your back. But I did I
Ritesh Gupta:love I fell in love with it, I got addicted to it and continue
Ritesh Gupta:doing playing drums through through college or I ended up
Ritesh Gupta:becoming kind of a section leader drum drumline captain at
Ritesh Gupta:the UCLA marching band played at all these football games. And I
Ritesh Gupta:was I was able to be really creative, we're able to have fun
Ritesh Gupta:with with what we're playing, performing all the emotions and
Ritesh Gupta:everything you really want to connect to the audience and
Ritesh Gupta:write look right in their eyes and really connect emotionally.
Ritesh Gupta:So that was a lot of fun. When it came to creativity
Ritesh Gupta:professionally, though, it was not actually something I ever
Ritesh Gupta:considered. I mean, we like to joke in kind of the Indian basic
Ritesh Gupta:community that you only have like three paths of life. And
Ritesh Gupta:it's pretty true for a lot of traditional Indian families. And
Ritesh Gupta:the three paths are number one, a doctor, number two, an
Ritesh Gupta:engineer, and number three a failure. And so for me to grow
Ritesh Gupta:up in an environment where I was encouraged to do creativity, but
Ritesh Gupta:it was more or less relegated to a volunteer activity or an as
Ritesh Gupta:almost like an afterthought. I never really actually consider
Ritesh Gupta:doing and pursuing any sort of creative field until I realized
Ritesh Gupta:that I can make money doing it, and a good living, as well as
Ritesh Gupta:knowing that I can make impact. So knowing something that I
Ritesh Gupta:make, that my parents would use or know exactly what I would
Ritesh Gupta:make was really important to me, not only for that validation,
Ritesh Gupta:you always kind of want validation whenever possible,
Ritesh Gupta:especially with parents within Indian families, you're always
Ritesh Gupta:trying to please your parents and your family. So it was
Ritesh Gupta:really kind of a long journey for me to realize that I was
Ritesh Gupta:more suited for a creative role, specifically with visual and
Ritesh Gupta:other sensory design. And that didn't happen until until well
Ritesh Gupta:into college. That didn't happen until I started an advertising.
Ritesh Gupta:And it didn't happen until I started having mentors kind of
Ritesh Gupta:come to me and say you can really, you can really kill it
Ritesh Gupta:in the space, just just keep going. And I'll help you.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:So with that, did school or family play
George Garrastegui, Jr.:a larger role in you becoming a designer or you kind of self
George Garrastegui, Jr.:taught?
Ritesh Gupta:My parents actually were a big inspiration
Ritesh Gupta:for me. They're both serial entrepreneurs. And they actually
Ritesh Gupta:work together, which is very rare for for entrepreneurs. Not
Ritesh Gupta:only do you have one entrepreneur family, but two,
Ritesh Gupta:and not only did I have to but they're my parents. And not only
Ritesh Gupta:that, but they actually work together to actually partners
Ritesh Gupta:and they invent companies and spin them off and all that kind
Ritesh Gupta:of exciting stuff. So the creativity really came as
Ritesh Gupta:inspiration from them. School I didn't really learn too much
Ritesh Gupta:about being creative. I was an economics major and and also did
Ritesh Gupta:accounting and I took the the once in a while kind of class
Ritesh Gupta:that could have opened my eyes but because my family was pretty
Ritesh Gupta:diligent about what I was studying, I couldn't spend a lot
Ritesh Gupta:of time like learning some of the classes that I wanted to
Ritesh Gupta:really take. UCLA has a great design Media Arts major, and I
Ritesh Gupta:was really interested in it but I wasn't able to. I wasn't able
Ritesh Gupta:to pursue it. I didn't really know too much about it. So it
Ritesh Gupta:was probably my family. Number one, just the inspiration to
Ritesh Gupta:take risks. And then number two, I actually started an
Ritesh Gupta:organization and entrepreneurship organization on
Ritesh Gupta:campus. And when I started creating the ads and figuring
Ritesh Gupta:out how to target the college students that wanted to be part
Ritesh Gupta:of the entrepreneurship organization. Once I created the
Ritesh Gupta:organization and wanted to figure out how to target them
Ritesh Gupta:through Media Writing on chalkboards and Guerilla
Ritesh Gupta:Marketing writing on the sidewalk at UCLA, and all that
Ritesh Gupta:stuff. I realized I really had a knack for it. And so I actually
Ritesh Gupta:straight up called Saatchi and Saatchi and left them a voice
Ritesh Gupta:message saying, Hey, I have no idea if I'm good for this like,
Ritesh Gupta:program that you have, like an internship program you have. But
Ritesh Gupta:here's my info. I'm really excited about it. I just don't
Ritesh Gupta:know too much about it. So would you be willing to just call me
Ritesh Gupta:back.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:So you just cold call the agency,
Ritesh Gupta:I just made a cold call at Saatchi and Saatchi. I
Ritesh Gupta:have this personality where like I'm not super afraid of walking
Ritesh Gupta:up to somebody or cold calling somebody even if they're quote
Ritesh Gupta:unquote, unreachable or can't talk to them for some reason,
Ritesh Gupta:like I just have a drive in me to do that.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:So with your cold calls Saatchi and
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Saatchi, Was that your first creative job? Or did you stumble
George Garrastegui, Jr.:into something else.
Ritesh Gupta:So it was actually my first creative role. I was an
Ritesh Gupta:intern. And I did it for about a summer. And at the time, the
Ritesh Gupta:their main client was Toyota. I was an account management
Ritesh Gupta:intern. And two weeks into the role I said on board, Can I
Ritesh Gupta:switch to a different department, HR was somewhat open
Ritesh Gupta:to the idea. But I just really kind of paved my way. And so I
Ritesh Gupta:just kind of happen to meet some folks like in the strategy
Ritesh Gupta:world, as was the as well as the creative side, they were on
Ritesh Gupta:different floors. So at the time accounting account management
Ritesh Gupta:was on the fourth floor, and the creative teams were on the
Ritesh Gupta:second floor, and it was dimly lit. So the cranes can be quiet
Ritesh Gupta:and do their magic. And so I was always like, interested in that.
Ritesh Gupta:So one day, I just went down there. They're working really
Ritesh Gupta:late at night, I was grinding on a project and I just happen to
Ritesh Gupta:go down there on a Razor scooter that they had around the office.
Ritesh Gupta:And I met who at the time was basically the head of creative,
Ritesh Gupta:Andre Lemuria. I asked him I was like, Hey, I'm about to get
Ritesh Gupta:ordered dinner and some snacks. Do you? Do y'all want anything?
Ritesh Gupta:And he and some of the folks that he was managing and like
Ritesh Gupta:we're in the office grind on a project like Yeah, dude, I would
Ritesh Gupta:actually love some corn nuts. And not just any corners, but I
Ritesh Gupta:want like these barbecue cornets. So a fellow intern and
Ritesh Gupta:myself, we went to like three or four different gas stations in
Ritesh Gupta:the area to like, find these, these these damn coordinates,
Ritesh Gupta:because I really didn't want I didn't really know who these
Ritesh Gupta:people I was talking to, at the time were in their position and
Ritesh Gupta:stuff. But I just didn't like want to disappoint them. So we
Ritesh Gupta:busted our asses to try to find these coordinates. And luckily,
Ritesh Gupta:I found them. And he was like, super impressed. He's like, are
Ritesh Gupta:you serious? I was like, I was like, kind of joking. So what
Ritesh Gupta:happened there was, I mean, there's obviously a lesson of
Ritesh Gupta:just like, it's not always bad to work late, because other
Ritesh Gupta:people that are working late with you like they might be just
Ritesh Gupta:willing to talk and like want to just like Gab, you never know
Ritesh Gupta:who you're going to talk to. So always take that leap in that
Ritesh Gupta:initiative if you're down. But number two is I just like ask
Ritesh Gupta:them. I was like, Hey, What are y'all working on. And they said
Ritesh Gupta:that they're working on a huge campaign for Cameron. It's one
Ritesh Gupta:of the biggest campaigns they've worked on. And they started
Ritesh Gupta:telling me some of the issues that they're they've been
Ritesh Gupta:having. And I said, I can help with that, like, oh, you need
Ritesh Gupta:you need to write some some copy lines, you need me to research
Ritesh Gupta:facts and give you the source of those facts. I'm economics
Ritesh Gupta:major, like I can totally do that. So eventually, the
Ritesh Gupta:creative team, like I started working with them on the second
Ritesh Gupta:floor, rather, on the fourth floor, I was still getting my
Ritesh Gupta:account management work done. But they just like started
Ritesh Gupta:advocating for me. And then they at some point, they actually
Ritesh Gupta:advocated for me to extend my stay for another couple of
Ritesh Gupta:weeks, because they needed me on a project. So I, I'm really
Ritesh Gupta:grateful for that kind of experience. On the flip side,
Ritesh Gupta:the data analytics team was on the third floor. And that's
Ritesh Gupta:where the kitchen was, and was relatively loud and stuff like
Ritesh Gupta:that. And I saw one Indian dude. And he was the only lady knew
Ritesh Gupta:that I saw in the building. And I walked up to him, I was like,
Ritesh Gupta:hey, Indian, like, you're Indian. Like, can we like talk
Ritesh Gupta:about that? Like, you're the only person I've seen as, you
Ritesh Gupta:know, kind of this company, like, I would love to talk about
Ritesh Gupta:that, like, what is it like and stuff and I think he's all
Ritesh Gupta:thrown off by like, my energy. And but he was really open. He's
Ritesh Gupta:like, Yeah, I mean, I'm on the data data analytics team. And I
Ritesh Gupta:am one the only folks here but it's like, really creative and
Ritesh Gupta:interesting. So that's what a light bulb went off. And I said,
Ritesh Gupta:Oh, I can be brown. I could do account management and like do
Ritesh Gupta:clients and like, put together decks or whatever needed to be
Ritesh Gupta:done, but I can also do strategy, and I can help out
Ritesh Gupta:with with data and I can help a copywriting and that's why I
Ritesh Gupta:started really falling in love with like that kind of
Ritesh Gupta:intersection of all that stuff. So it
George Garrastegui, Jr.:just seems like a lot of like Kismet
George Garrastegui, Jr.:moments happening right? And it seems like between the fourth
George Garrastegui, Jr.:and the second floor, the third floor like there's little
George Garrastegui, Jr.:moments of finding yourself. When did you consider yourself a
George Garrastegui, Jr.:creative?
Ritesh Gupta:I feel like I could consider myself a quote
Ritesh Gupta:unquote creative. Once I had a an official job, where like
Ritesh Gupta:creativity, I was doing something creative like 80% of
Ritesh Gupta:the time and what's that essentially meant was I probably
Ritesh Gupta:considered myself to be a creative or creative. When I
Ritesh Gupta:went to widen, I, that was my full time role. I was very
Ritesh Gupta:creative, I was able to be really creative at Saatchi and
Ritesh Gupta:Saatchi, I was able to be very creative at Deutsch the wide and
Ritesh Gupta:felt like I made it, I went across country, I got the offer,
Ritesh Gupta:I went across country within a couple of weeks, settle down in
Ritesh Gupta:New York City. I was at fucking widen, and I was meeting all
Ritesh Gupta:these amazing folks. And that's when I felt like I was a
Ritesh Gupta:creative.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:I mean, it seems like you're the ability
George Garrastegui, Jr.:to put yourself out there and be in the room. And notice that
George Garrastegui, Jr.:sometimes being there late at night puts you into places where
George Garrastegui, Jr.:there's a comfortability factor. There's all of us camaraderie,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:we're all achieving the same goals. So where we're no longer
George Garrastegui, Jr.:looking at each other as like, well, you work here, and I work
George Garrastegui, Jr.:there and I do this, but also your ability to take the
George Garrastegui, Jr.:initiative to find those BBQ nuts where it's like, you're
George Garrastegui, Jr.:going to make sure that at least you're going to put in all the
George Garrastegui, Jr.:effort to try to find them, right, maybe you don't. And
George Garrastegui, Jr.:that's okay. But the fact that you did, probably also puts you
George Garrastegui, Jr.:on that extra level where people go, this person is going to go
George Garrastegui, Jr.:that extra mile for the project for the team for that. You're
George Garrastegui, Jr.:cold calling Saatchi and Saatchi, you're going across
George Garrastegui, Jr.:country to you know, widening Kennedy, you're working with
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Sagmeister Walsh, you're working with mother design, right?
George Garrastegui, Jr.:You're just presenting a brand new conference like these are
George Garrastegui, Jr.:not small feats, right? What do you think has helped you get to
George Garrastegui, Jr.:that level? Because I think there's a level in there. We
George Garrastegui, Jr.:don't all get to do that we get to do maybe one of those things.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:And it seems like you've, you've been lucky enough and fortunate
George Garrastegui, Jr.:enough to kind of do a lot of those things.
Ritesh Gupta:So there's a lot of advice and insights I can
Ritesh Gupta:kind of give related to that question. So one anecdote I'd
Ritesh Gupta:like to share that kind of helps answer your question is that at
Ritesh Gupta:one time, I was at a job interview for an agency. And at
Ritesh Gupta:the end of the interview, I actually gave the interviewers,
Ritesh Gupta:a MTA card, a subway card, and the card had one freeze, it had
Ritesh Gupta:money on it, it had a one subway ride. I think at the time, it
Ritesh Gupta:was like 275. And like for a ride. Plus the cost of like the
Ritesh Gupta:card itself was like $1, or something like that at the time.
Ritesh Gupta:So around four bucks per per card, which is expensive when it
Ritesh Gupta:comes to like just giving out a gift, especially when you think
Ritesh Gupta:about as a business card. But I had my contact information stuck
Ritesh Gupta:on there with like a sticker, kind of makeshift. And it had my
Ritesh Gupta:contact information on it, of course, my name, my phone
Ritesh Gupta:number, my email address, and some sort of tagline. So
Ritesh Gupta:something along the lines of like whenever you're in a pinch,
Ritesh Gupta:use me. And so the idea was that when the interviewer ran out of
Ritesh Gupta:subway rides on their card, they could remember Aha, reteach,
Ritesh Gupta:like he's super useful. And he and they would be able to like
Ritesh Gupta:use the card that I gave them, whenever they're like in a
Ritesh Gupta:pinch, because there's never a good time to run out of a swipe
Ritesh Gupta:or, or money on a car, especially the subway and you
Ritesh Gupta:see the car, the F train going and leaving the train station,
Ritesh Gupta:you're like, Fuck, I should have put more money on it. So it was
Ritesh Gupta:like those types of things that I started doing with people or
Ritesh Gupta:for people that started setting me apart. Now, I do want to be
Ritesh Gupta:clear, I did not get that job. I actually was not right for it at
Ritesh Gupta:all. And they took they told me straight up, like, Come back
Ritesh Gupta:when you have something different. And I'm actually
Ritesh Gupta:fortunate that I that I did not get that job. So I would not
Ritesh Gupta:have been happy. But the point being is that I'm now in contact
Ritesh Gupta:with the folks that I gave those cards to. And they remember
Ritesh Gupta:that. So that's one example. When it comes when it comes from
Ritesh Gupta:making the jump to widen to working with Sagmeister and
Ritesh Gupta:Walsh and mother, there were a couple of experiences between
Ritesh Gupta:them that I want to kind of highlight. I'm a huge shark tank
Ritesh Gupta:fan. And so when I saw two ideas, Hungry Harvest and pet
Ritesh Gupta:play on Shark Tank, the following day, I just straight
Ritesh Gupta:up cold emailed them. The cool thing about that is that yes,
Ritesh Gupta:they're getting a lot of buzz and but there's a surprisingly
Ritesh Gupta:little number of people that actually hit them up and say,
Ritesh Gupta:hey, I want to work for you. And not only that, but hey, your
Ritesh Gupta:website sucks. And I want to help you redesign it and not
Ritesh Gupta:only am I going to get your website like look better and
Ritesh Gupta:feel better, but I can guarantee you it's going to turn into
Ritesh Gupta:sales. And so that's when I realized I could really pitch in
Ritesh Gupta:cold emails and like just one line like Hey, I saw you on
Ritesh Gupta:Shark Tank real quick. concept. By the way, your your website's
Ritesh Gupta:like is really not up to snuff. And I always ask a question at
Ritesh Gupta:the end like a yes or no question. Like, do you want to
Ritesh Gupta:hop on the phone tomorrow? So it's like very easy, yes or no.
Ritesh Gupta:And so I did that twice. And I got both the gigs. To a degree
Ritesh Gupta:that actually, I almost made up a job for myself in the sense
Ritesh Gupta:of, they were looking at the time for specific things. But I
Ritesh Gupta:was like, no, no, I'll do that stuff. But I want to add more on
Ritesh Gupta:top of that. So the learning there is, especially with
Ritesh Gupta:startups, I always encourage people of color to not just look
Ritesh Gupta:at what the what the job description is, but to Morfitt
Ritesh Gupta:in a way that really suits you. Yeah, of course, you might do
Ritesh Gupta:the stuff that's like on the paper. But eventually, you can
Ritesh Gupta:start like adding things to it. And one of those things for
Ritesh Gupta:plate was leading a rebrand. And luckily, we had a lot of
Ritesh Gupta:investors that were very down for very creative work and
Ritesh Gupta:Sagmeister. And Walsh was a perfect fit for the for the
Ritesh Gupta:company at the time. Realm did something similar, where they
Ritesh Gupta:were technically hiring a UI or UX designer, but I said, No, no,
Ritesh Gupta:I'm much more better suited for as a in a product role. And oh,
Ritesh Gupta:yeah, of course, I'll do the UI. And of course, I'll help with
Ritesh Gupta:the UX and stuff. But I want to be at a slightly different
Ritesh Gupta:level. And I'm also going to help you lead your rebrand
Ritesh Gupta:because I'm not feeling the brand right now. And I would
Ritesh Gupta:love to redo that. And I was very clear during the interview
Ritesh Gupta:process that how much budget do you have her rebrand? What kind
Ritesh Gupta:of work? Are you inspired by? Like, how cool can we take this?
Ritesh Gupta:So that way before I even like, accepted the job offer
Ritesh Gupta:continued, I wasn't wasting anybody's time. And I knew
Ritesh Gupta:exactly what kind of work Molly, for example, the founder at
Ritesh Gupta:Rome, formerly cereal box really wanted.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:So is that really, you coming down to
George Garrastegui, Jr.:do enough research of these brands to understand not only
George Garrastegui, Jr.:what the brief is, and the fact that their stuff just doesn't
George Garrastegui, Jr.:look up to snuff, and they need to take it up a notch, but how
George Garrastegui, Jr.:you're able to one decide, yeah, there's all these lists of
George Garrastegui, Jr.:things that you think you need. But also, I understand that
George Garrastegui, Jr.:there's a whole nother level of things that I'm also willing to,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:to do to get you to the point where you need to be, that
George Garrastegui, Jr.:doesn't seem like something that is, you know, obviously, it's
George Garrastegui, Jr.:not job description wise, it's it's in the realm of going above
George Garrastegui, Jr.:and beyond. But it's also in the realm of understanding, you
George Garrastegui, Jr.:know, how sometimes clients don't really know what they
George Garrastegui, Jr.:need. They just think they need an updated photo, or just a logo
George Garrastegui, Jr.:and or, you know, one little component is going to make the
George Garrastegui, Jr.:whole thing feel fresh. And designers come to the table and
George Garrastegui, Jr.:go Well, you know, yes, that would enhance it for a week. But
George Garrastegui, Jr.:if you're looking to make money to change the game, to do any of
George Garrastegui, Jr.:this, you need to do a brand audit and really consider,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:right, it looks like you're bringing this insight to them
George Garrastegui, Jr.:where they really had no body doing that work for them. And as
George Garrastegui, Jr.:a designer who's coming to wants to get the business. You're
George Garrastegui, Jr.:doing so much more than just design? It seems like you're
George Garrastegui, Jr.:almost, you know, I had one one guest who basically said, I'm
George Garrastegui, Jr.:making it easy for you to say, Yes, I'm doing all the work that
George Garrastegui, Jr.:you should have been doing. And all you have to do is say yes,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:and we can make this thing happen. Is that how do you how
George Garrastegui, Jr.:do you get to that point, because that doesn't seem like
George Garrastegui, Jr.:those things don't fall in your lap, you're making it sound very
George Garrastegui, Jr.:simple in the way that these things happen. You know, I love
George Garrastegui, Jr.:the little snippet of the ability to ask a question at the
George Garrastegui, Jr.:end of an email, right? It gives them something to do so they're
George Garrastegui, Jr.:gonna have to respond to you. It's an easy way out, or it's a
George Garrastegui, Jr.:it's a connection in. But it seems like there is this ability
George Garrastegui, Jr.:for you to foresee what what people don't see in themselves,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:and start to look at those things and offer suggestions in
George Garrastegui, Jr.:a way that connects you to people, right? Like the way that
George Garrastegui, Jr.:you're looking at the MTA swipe pass is like, if you're in a
George Garrastegui, Jr.:pinch, I can help that that like marketing speak of this metro
George Garrastegui, Jr.:card is allowing you to reach out to me or I'm helping you
George Garrastegui, Jr.:it's a great way for for people to use that. And so I'm seeing
George Garrastegui, Jr.:this ability to get from point A to point B, but how did you
George Garrastegui, Jr.:learn a little bit just to go back to research like that? That
George Garrastegui, Jr.:doesn't come naturally.
Ritesh Gupta:So I would say it comes somewhat naturally, but
Ritesh Gupta:it's mostly a learned behavior. I would say that. Typically,
Ritesh Gupta:most designers when you're talking about creating a new app
Ritesh Gupta:or a new world, or a new startup, whatever your might,
Ritesh Gupta:you might be designing including legislation or something.
Ritesh Gupta:Typically, those folks are relatively separate from a data
Ritesh Gupta:focused individual. It's relatively rare to have a
Ritesh Gupta:designer who can speak or is even interested about speaking
Ritesh Gupta:both design and data. And what's interesting is that we have a
Ritesh Gupta:decent amount of research that shows that the better the
Ritesh Gupta:design, the better your stock price, or better your
Ritesh Gupta:performance will be bottom line, Mackenzie ran a very large study
Ritesh Gupta:about this. And as, as proven that out, I spoke a little bit
Ritesh Gupta:about this brand new and I encouraged everybody who was
Ritesh Gupta:watching to just take a screenshot of the slide that I
Ritesh Gupta:showed, and use it during new business pitches. Because the
Ritesh Gupta:more we can demonstrate to the whole world, that there is a an
Ritesh Gupta:ultimate benefit monetarily in addition to social etc, we're
Ritesh Gupta:all going to be better off for it. So why keep that? Why keep
Ritesh Gupta:that deck slide to myself. Now, I have been fortunate enough to
Ritesh Gupta:work with folks that already know the value of design. And
Ritesh Gupta:they know the value of branding, they know the value of like a
Ritesh Gupta:really great fluid user experience, just because it's
Ritesh Gupta:the right thing to do. And a lot of the founders that I've worked
Ritesh Gupta:with, and the folks that I've collaborated with, they
Ritesh Gupta:understand how frustrating it is to have a poor user experience
Ritesh Gupta:like an onboarding flow that's asking too many questions or a
Ritesh Gupta:site that's loading longer than three seconds, any of that
Ritesh Gupta:stuff. So they do know the value design intrinsically. But to be
Ritesh Gupta:able to go to a team, especially folks that control where the
Ritesh Gupta:budget goes to be able to say I did an A B test. And it
Ritesh Gupta:increased conversions, like signups on a checkout page by
Ritesh Gupta:10%. And that means at our current rate, that it's going to
Ritesh Gupta:equal another $333,000. That's a really powerful and really
Ritesh Gupta:exciting thing that a designer is able to say. So they don't
Ritesh Gupta:have to just rely on some of the stuff that's typically designers
Ritesh Gupta:typically known for related to beauty, or fluidity. But now
Ritesh Gupta:we're able to also talk about it from a from a monetary point of
Ritesh Gupta:view for the people who need to hear about the monetary point of
Ritesh Gupta:view. But being able to combine the both those things have
Ritesh Gupta:allowed a lot of the companies that I've been fortunate to work
Ritesh Gupta:with and seen just around the world. Absolutely kill it, and
Ritesh Gupta:absolutely crush it.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Right. And I mean, there's definitely
George Garrastegui, Jr.:an intrinsic value as to why design is important, right? And
George Garrastegui, Jr.:when you when you come down to the accident zones, and you
George Garrastegui, Jr.:know, in the red or in the black, right? Like where if
George Garrastegui, Jr.:it's, if design is gonna make you money, yes, please, you
George Garrastegui, Jr.:know, somebody who's looking at that. And sometimes, that's the
George Garrastegui, Jr.:language you need to hear, you can put all the bells and
George Garrastegui, Jr.:whistles is gonna look amazing. Look at this beautiful color,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:it's gonna function, this button is gonna be the best button
George Garrastegui, Jr.:ever. But it's like how much money is gonna make? Okay, cool.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Now I'm down. Right? It definitely seems like your
George Garrastegui, Jr.:ability to one navigate between the fourth and the second floor
George Garrastegui, Jr.:without accounting was in the third, you've added to your
George Garrastegui, Jr.:design experience with these exponential experiences, the
George Garrastegui, Jr.:ability to go a little bit further for that design team to
George Garrastegui, Jr.:connect with that other Indian person on the on the third floor
George Garrastegui, Jr.:to learn about well, data is important. There's all these
George Garrastegui, Jr.:things that that kind of just working together. And it's
George Garrastegui, Jr.:funny, because it seems like there's a lot of similarities
George Garrastegui, Jr.:from what you've been doing with larger well known agencies, and
George Garrastegui, Jr.:some of these small startups, can you give me one big
George Garrastegui, Jr.:similarity or difference that you see working from a startup
George Garrastegui, Jr.:or working for a large company.
Ritesh Gupta:So the main similarity that I see,
Ritesh Gupta:especially with the places that I've been able to collaborate
Ritesh Gupta:with, like Sagmeister, and Walsh and Mother design and some of
Ritesh Gupta:these other folks, contrary to historical relationships, the
Ritesh Gupta:incentives have really been aligned. It we're not trying to
Ritesh Gupta:make work just for an award. The similarity of between these
Ritesh Gupta:agencies, as well as the startups of both being, like,
Ritesh Gupta:emotionally invested in the success of a company is
Ritesh Gupta:something that has huge interest to me. And that's one of the
Ritesh Gupta:reasons why I really love working at mission driven
Ritesh Gupta:startups and for and consulting for mission driven companies and
Ritesh Gupta:things like that, even as little as type consulting, because of
Ritesh Gupta:that kind of symbiosis, I guess. Traditionally, the incentives
Ritesh Gupta:have been very misaligned, you know, an external partner might
Ritesh Gupta:just be interested in creating like really creative work. The
Ritesh Gupta:startup is really trying to raise money and doing whatever
Ritesh Gupta:they can to like show really positive investor metrics. But
Ritesh Gupta:now, those two worlds are, are evaporating and they're and
Ritesh Gupta:they're becoming like one. So that's a similarity that I've
Ritesh Gupta:seen, but in the past has been very different
George Garrastegui, Jr.:and started touching on what we're
George Garrastegui, Jr.:going to shift into right mission driven. And it might
George Garrastegui, Jr.:have been probably two years ago and 2020. In the lovely June
George Garrastegui, Jr.:when I think I first just learned about you because of the
George Garrastegui, Jr.:where all the black designers conference that happened, right,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:the virtual conference that was just that, that awakening that
George Garrastegui, Jr.:everybody needed to come back to dealing with originally Cheryl
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Miller's stuff, then Maurice cherries stuff, and then Mitzi
George Garrastegui, Jr.:and Garrett, so this this, you know, ongoing, unfortunate thing
George Garrastegui, Jr.:that where are the diversity in an industry that's been going on
George Garrastegui, Jr.:for this long? How did you get introduced to Mitzi and Garrett
George Garrastegui, Jr.:and to become volunteers part of that movement.
Ritesh Gupta:So when the conference was happening, the
Ritesh Gupta:first conference that is, I tried my best to offer
Ritesh Gupta:interesting or additive information in the chat, the
Ritesh Gupta:chat was blowing up, it was crazy. Right? That's not even
Ritesh Gupta:including when Roxane Gay showed up as the special guest I'm
Ritesh Gupta:talking about before that people were going crazy. And it was
Ritesh Gupta:both black folk and non black folk. And because I'd done a
Ritesh Gupta:little bit of research in this space, taking AIGA and Google
Ritesh Gupta:Design Tensas. In presenting that, and I had some slides, I
Ritesh Gupta:was able to pull over on that. So as interesting discussions
Ritesh Gupta:were happening from the panelists, and the moderators, I
Ritesh Gupta:was able to drop in some of that stuff into the chat, and people
Ritesh Gupta:seem to see people seem to enjoy it. And I realized that evening
Ritesh Gupta:after the conference had had wrapped up, that there was this
Ritesh Gupta:pent up kind of need for the community to do more needed
Ritesh Gupta:moderation. Mitzi and Garrett needed some support, they wanted
Ritesh Gupta:some support. And so I reached out and ended up becoming a
Ritesh Gupta:volunteer, mostly because I wanted to help. And I didn't
Ritesh Gupta:want my assistance to be some sort of one day conference, and
Ritesh Gupta:then ghost type of thing, as actually has happened with a lot
Ritesh Gupta:of non black folk. And so I knew that the organization had a lot
Ritesh Gupta:of staying power. And the other volunteers really welcomed me
Ritesh Gupta:with open arms. And I'm proud to say that we had our second
Ritesh Gupta:conference last year. And it went off great. We had even
Ritesh Gupta:deeper discussions that some of the discussions that we wanted
Ritesh Gupta:to touch on more from the previous one, and we had some
Ritesh Gupta:really amazing panelists, I was fortunate enough to moderate an
Ritesh Gupta:ally focused panel discussion, which we felt was important for
Ritesh Gupta:allies to hear, while and while still centering black folk, that
Ritesh Gupta:was actually a very difficult, difficult conversation. Because
Ritesh Gupta:the way that where the conversation went from one of
Ritesh Gupta:the panelists, it became a little difficult. So luckily, I
Ritesh Gupta:was seeing in the chat that people were respectful of how I
Ritesh Gupta:was approaching the topics that came up, and that re energize my
Ritesh Gupta:interest in helping. And I realized that I'm relatively
Ritesh Gupta:good at helping somebody, even in a public space, that and
Ritesh Gupta:being in the Sunday, I might be vulnerable, and thinking on my
Ritesh Gupta:feet. And that's when I realized, wow, I really want to,
Ritesh Gupta:I just really want to keep going with this. And I wasn't even
Ritesh Gupta:doubting that I would stop being a volunteer, anything like that,
Ritesh Gupta:before the second conference, this just got me even more fired
Ritesh Gupta:up. So we have a lot of really exciting news coming out,
Ritesh Gupta:hopefully, in the next few months about the future where
Ritesh Gupta:the buck designers and I
George Garrastegui, Jr.:and I just as a viewer of that
George Garrastegui, Jr.:particular panel, you know, I definitely can understand how to
George Garrastegui, Jr.:navigate sensitive topics, and be respectful to all the people
George Garrastegui, Jr.:involved, and also stand your ground, right, and make sure
George Garrastegui, Jr.:that you're not going to kind of acquiesce to anybody who's been
George Garrastegui, Jr.:doing it for a long time, and just be like, well, that's the
George Garrastegui, Jr.:way it is, you know, you're challenging respectfully, and
George Garrastegui, Jr.:also trying to teach and hopefully get through. And
George Garrastegui, Jr.:sometimes in a moment, it's not something that that is you're
George Garrastegui, Jr.:able to take in, you know, hopefully, that that individual,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:you know, was able to, like think back and be like, Oh, I
George Garrastegui, Jr.:understand. And that's that's all we can do right is to is to
George Garrastegui, Jr.:kind of like, just bring it up, because if we don't bring it up,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:then that systematically just continues to happen. So I
George Garrastegui, Jr.:definitely think your ability to think on your feed, but also
George Garrastegui, Jr.:feel that support that was happening in the chat to be
George Garrastegui, Jr.:like, you're going the right direction. You know what you're
George Garrastegui, Jr.:not trying to call the person out, you're trying to support,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:but also forcefully enough to be like, this is kind of a big
George Garrastegui, Jr.:deal. We need to address this situation, right? And so anybody
George Garrastegui, Jr.:who was listening to the conference probably knows, you
George Garrastegui, Jr.:know, so we don't need to go into it. But you know, that was
George Garrastegui, Jr.:just definitely something that kind of sparked my interest too,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:because I think that's a very hard thing to do. It's easy to
George Garrastegui, Jr.:get frustrated and maybe take it to a place where does it need to
George Garrastegui, Jr.:be, you know, especially in public for. And I think that was
George Garrastegui, Jr.:a just another interesting thing and the fact that it reenergized
George Garrastegui, Jr.:you to kind of be like the work still needs to be done. And what
George Garrastegui, Jr.:I'm doing is helping support this larger mission. You know,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:as I kept on doing research for you to kind of like dig into
George Garrastegui, Jr.:some questions, like we mentioned before, I always want
George Garrastegui, Jr.:to, you know, ask my guests things that are not necessarily
George Garrastegui, Jr.:the same things you're going to get, you know, I don't want to
George Garrastegui, Jr.:ask you the same question that this other article asked you.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:But I think I read in, I think it was your dye line article
George Garrastegui, Jr.:feature, where it says that you mentioned that you mentor other
George Garrastegui, Jr.:designers, which I think is awesome, but really, that you
George Garrastegui, Jr.:focus on typefaces by bipoc creatives. So here's a two part
George Garrastegui, Jr.:question sort of, how important is that to you? And then beyond
George Garrastegui, Jr.:the big names of like Joshua Darden and Trey seals, how do
George Garrastegui, Jr.:you find these typefaces that are by bipoc designers, because
George Garrastegui, Jr.:for myself, I've looked in like searching just kind of like
George Garrastegui, Jr.:rudimentary Google searches of like, black designers,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:typefaces, or Latin does, you know, it's, it's not easy to
George Garrastegui, Jr.:find.
Ritesh Gupta:So finding, finding and utilizing typefaces
Ritesh Gupta:from folks that are traditionally underrepresented
Ritesh Gupta:is really important to me. Because as we do that, and focus
Ritesh Gupta:on it more and more, we are literally giving more visibility
Ritesh Gupta:to folks that traditionally aren't being seen, because
Ritesh Gupta:literally, this typefaces are being read by millions and
Ritesh Gupta:billions of eyeballs every day. And there are phenomenal
Ritesh Gupta:typefaces that have been done from people who are of color, or
Ritesh Gupta:other identities that deserve deserves to be seen, at the very
Ritesh Gupta:least, going to those foundries or looking at the work from
Ritesh Gupta:specific designers, considering those first, and then going the
Ritesh Gupta:more common routes. And at least giving them at least the first
Ritesh Gupta:what I would say in I guess real estate terms, a term I just
Ritesh Gupta:learned today, right, a first refusal type of thing like give
Ritesh Gupta:give the traditionally marginalized and
Ritesh Gupta:underrepresented type designers, the first stab like the first
Ritesh Gupta:chance, and what that requires is a putting the onus on the
Ritesh Gupta:person who's selecting the typeface. It takes a lot of work
Ritesh Gupta:to do that there are amazing resources, that letterform
Ritesh Gupta:archive, for example, has that was actually started by the
Ritesh Gupta:question of where are all the black type designers from Bobby
Ritesh Gupta:Martin. And there's now a really beautiful resource of black type
Ritesh Gupta:foundry owners as well as black type designers. Trey seals from
Ritesh Gupta:vocal type is obviously on there. Joshua Darden, one of the
Ritesh Gupta:first black type designers in America, one of the most
Ritesh Gupta:renowned folks, he's obviously on there. And there's a ton of
Ritesh Gupta:other incredible folks, when it comes to tie faces from women,
Ritesh Gupta:or typefaces from East Asian women specifically, or something
Ritesh Gupta:like that. There are also resources out there typer
Ritesh Gupta:grafica, has done some really great work in interviewing
Ritesh Gupta:Native American designers, specifically who are interested
Ritesh Gupta:in type. And those are other great resources. So the onus is
Ritesh Gupta:really on spending the extra, I would say, double the time that
Ritesh Gupta:you think would consider finding a typeface, if it takes you
Ritesh Gupta:traditionally 10 or 20 hours to find a typeface, consider around
Ritesh Gupta:40 hours to find to go that extra length to find the fonts
Ritesh Gupta:that really that feel good and feel right for the project. And
Ritesh Gupta:I'm not saying you have to use a cortical diverse type, just for
Ritesh Gupta:the sake of it. And don't care about how it looks and don't
Ritesh Gupta:care about any of that, like all the all of the story around who
Ritesh Gupta:created it, the sense of craft, the aesthetic, and the feel, and
Ritesh Gupta:how well it jives with the rest of the branding, all that stuff
Ritesh Gupta:has to be taken account. So I would start with the with the
Ritesh Gupta:identity of the designer first and then move on to the more
Ritesh Gupta:literally aesthetic decisions and go from there. So that's one
Ritesh Gupta:thing that I love to do. And that bonus also is on the
Ritesh Gupta:client, if there's a client that their a type designer might be
Ritesh Gupta:working with, or typography is working with. It's also up to
Ritesh Gupta:them to say, talk to me about the fonts like teach me a little
Ritesh Gupta:bit about typography. Because and I talked about this during
Ritesh Gupta:type type directors club. When a lay person types in cool fonts
Ritesh Gupta:or beautiful fonts or something like that. There's very poor
Ritesh Gupta:resources out there that show up on the first couple of pages of
Ritesh Gupta:Google search results. So the lay person traditionally doesn't
Ritesh Gupta:know about East Asian like specifically Filipina based
Ritesh Gupta:fonts or something like that the average person is not going to
Ritesh Gupta:know that. So it's it's often on up to the designer and the
Ritesh Gupta:client to work together and educate each other about the
Ritesh Gupta:story of the fonts that they chose. Who's doing it, what's
Ritesh Gupta:their identity? Why this typeface outside of the
Ritesh Gupta:aesthetic decisions. Now, most lay people aren't going to know
Ritesh Gupta:the story like most people aren't going to know, Joshua
Ritesh Gupta:garden did Halyard or Joshua Darden did another typeface, but
Ritesh Gupta:it's really, really important for the industry, to at least
Ritesh Gupta:come to reckoning with how we're choosing fonts and how we're
Ritesh Gupta:choosing and selecting the visibility that we give.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:I agree, I think that type is such
George Garrastegui, Jr.:a language that designers own that the ability to control
George Garrastegui, Jr.:that. And the aesthetic of that is one of the things that we're
George Garrastegui, Jr.:able to make sure makes or breaks something, you know, we
George Garrastegui, Jr.:talk about maybe the ability to be in the room or something type
George Garrastegui, Jr.:choices is where we get to shine and how a page looks. Those are
George Garrastegui, Jr.:the decisions that we tend to make that make or break things.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:And if we can include type designs, and illustrations and
George Garrastegui, Jr.:things from people from these marginalized groups, but it's
George Garrastegui, Jr.:not even to only include them is to, it's to really include the
George Garrastegui, Jr.:nuance that these typefaces, and these designs bring, because the
George Garrastegui, Jr.:little idiosyncrasies that they bring is cultural, that makes or
George Garrastegui, Jr.:breaks sometimes the work that you you add them to, when you
George Garrastegui, Jr.:think of a tray seals, design and vocal type. I mean, I think
George Garrastegui, Jr.:I just bought the book, the Spike Lee book, and he designed
George Garrastegui, Jr.:the typeface throughout the whole entire book that's based
George Garrastegui, Jr.:on you know, radio, Raheem aims for finger rings, right love and
George Garrastegui, Jr.:hate. And to think that that forefinger ring, which is in the
George Garrastegui, Jr.:80s, and any jeweler would have created that typeface, and
George Garrastegui, Jr.:nobody would consider a jeweler or a typeface designer, right,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:traditionally, but now Trey is making a whole entire foundry
George Garrastegui, Jr.:and type family off of this one aesthetic and making it
George Garrastegui, Jr.:beautiful, and also doing it for people like us who grew up with
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Spike Lee and do the right thing. The movie is kind of just
George Garrastegui, Jr.:in our wheelhouse of like that his representation and the
George Garrastegui, Jr.:conflict and the day and a hot summer day, right? Like, all of
George Garrastegui, Jr.:those things matter. So when you look at that typeface, there's
George Garrastegui, Jr.:so much weight behind that, versus just selecting Times New
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Roman, doesn't mean doesn't have its place. But I think there's
George Garrastegui, Jr.:so much history and stories with other other typefaces from
George Garrastegui, Jr.:designers that are there, that it elevates, and works with you,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:you know, with the projects you put them on.
Ritesh Gupta:And something I also want to add, I want to give
Ritesh Gupta:a couple of different nods to some folks that I think are
Ritesh Gupta:doing some interesting work. Future fonts is a place where I
Ritesh Gupta:found a lot of traditionally unreleased fonts that aren't on
Ritesh Gupta:Adobe Typekit or somewhere else, I found a lot of the future
Ritesh Gupta:fonts, by the way, the URLs, future fonts that XYZ I go to,
Ritesh Gupta:they're oftentimes, and you could find the people of color
Ritesh Gupta:that are on there. And you could see a lot of fonts are in
Ritesh Gupta:development. And they're not even perfect, and they're not
Ritesh Gupta:finished yet. And some of those fonts are going to take years to
Ritesh Gupta:get done. If not, they might not ever be finished. But they'll
Ritesh Gupta:allow you to test them and use them in different ways. And I
Ritesh Gupta:love you utilizing that. And then Juan Villa Nueva, who was
Ritesh Gupta:actually on the panel that I moderated. He's doing a lot of
Ritesh Gupta:great stuff within the within the bipoc type design community.
Ritesh Gupta:And he's got a really great fund that he's raised. And he's he's
Ritesh Gupta:he's worked with incredible up and coming, folks who
Ritesh Gupta:traditionally wouldn't go to the Cooper's of the world or or
Ritesh Gupta:another another type spot. The other one that I've been really
Ritesh Gupta:loving is his sharp type. And they have a scholarship and the
Ritesh Gupta:the Mallee scholarship, and some of the typefaces that are coming
Ritesh Gupta:out of the finalists. And the winners of that scholarship are
Ritesh Gupta:absolutely incredible. And they're all people of color, and
Ritesh Gupta:women specifically. And I really appreciate that approach to
Ritesh Gupta:sponsoring folks to release fonts that that deserve to be
Ritesh Gupta:released. And I think it's doing a great job of of centering
Ritesh Gupta:women and also specifically people of color women who are
Ritesh Gupta:people of color and who are also not identifying along the binary
Ritesh Gupta:and they're, they're, they're non binary etc. So I'm really
Ritesh Gupta:loving some of the some of the platforms that deserve to be
Ritesh Gupta:more recognized.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:So as we're starting to think about
George Garrastegui, Jr.:the idea of diversity in typefaces, the ability of how we
George Garrastegui, Jr.:advocate for how something so important starts to creep into
George Garrastegui, Jr.:their mind their mindset, the way they need to think about,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:you know, approach. You're starting to come up with a new
George Garrastegui, Jr.:idea right after volunteering for where all the black
George Garrastegui, Jr.:designers there's now this new thing that's going to be
George Garrastegui, Jr.:starting in you said February when we talked earlier. It's
George Garrastegui, Jr.:called the useful school. How Did the idea of the useful
George Garrastegui, Jr.:school come about?
Ritesh Gupta:So after I did my talk at brand new in 2019 in Las
Ritesh Gupta:Vegas, I talked to two individuals. And both of them
Ritesh Gupta:were really hype about the stuff that I was sharing and the kind
Ritesh Gupta:of changes I was kind of advocating for within the space.
Ritesh Gupta:And one of those folks was named Forrest, who at the time was the
Ritesh Gupta:chief creative officer at Wolff Olins. And he was there to do
Ritesh Gupta:the keynote about the Uber rebrand and like I was, I was
Ritesh Gupta:fanning out like crazy and to talk with him and have him give
Ritesh Gupta:me a really big nod towards saying literally reteach you
Ritesh Gupta:better do this, like, I know, things aren't like, super clear
Ritesh Gupta:at this point about like, specifically what you want to
Ritesh Gupta:do. But you You better do, you better do this, like you better
Ritesh Gupta:help help push some of these ideas that you're talking about.
Ritesh Gupta:The other individual that was really hype was DeRoy, who's
Ritesh Gupta:from hyper X. And for full transparency, that was an agency
Ritesh Gupta:that I've been trying to, like, work at, or work with forever.
Ritesh Gupta:So for him to be like, also a speaker, and me able to finally
Ritesh Gupta:speak with him and him giving me some love for what I was saying
Ritesh Gupta:was was awesome. And so as I continued in the conference
Ritesh Gupta:forced and I continued to stay in touch at the after parties in
Ritesh Gupta:Las Vegas, and we really became really, really good friends. And
Ritesh Gupta:I eventually came to this idea of, Can I do the following? Can
Ritesh Gupta:I, as the main individual, create impact where there's more
Ritesh Gupta:representation within the design industry? Okay. Yeah, probably
Ritesh Gupta:aren't. What does that look like? Well, I started put
Ritesh Gupta:thinking through some ideas, but the one that really stuck with
Ritesh Gupta:me, is an online platform that taught zoom classes. And to help
Ritesh Gupta:people who are not in the industry, enter the industry,
Ritesh Gupta:and to help the folks that are currently in the industry to
Ritesh Gupta:thrive, meaning get promoted, salary increase, open up their
Ritesh Gupta:own studios, what have you. And where it really became
Ritesh Gupta:interesting was that I wanted to be as accessible as possible. So
Ritesh Gupta:I wanted the price to be literally pay what you can,
Ritesh Gupta:which I had never seen, like in some sort of like online school
Ritesh Gupta:or anything like that. So it was pretty radical at the time, I'm
Ritesh Gupta:a pretty big Radiohead fan and some of the fan of some of the
Ritesh Gupta:bands that have done pay what you can for albums, but I've
Ritesh Gupta:never really seen it done in the school space. And then, of
Ritesh Gupta:course, I wanted to send our people of color. That's what I
Ritesh Gupta:was talking about. That's what a lot of folks were really giving
Ritesh Gupta:me like a lot of nods. And so I said, Okay, I'm going to do
Ritesh Gupta:practical classes for people of color, they're going to be 10
Ritesh Gupta:weeks zoom classes. And the price you tell us it's pay what
Ritesh Gupta:you can. And if you can't pay, don't worry, somebody will cover
Ritesh Gupta:the tab, whether it's another individual or it's a company.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:I mean, that's, that's amazing. I mean,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:like you said, I don't think I've seen a pay what you can
George Garrastegui, Jr.:model for education, right? There's always a strict, this
George Garrastegui, Jr.:thing costs x amount of dollars, because we need to pay and, you
George Garrastegui, Jr.:know, make sure we monetize this. And what I'm hearing is
George Garrastegui, Jr.:the idea that the monetization of a concept is not the
George Garrastegui, Jr.:important part, it's the who needs to get this knowledge is
George Garrastegui, Jr.:really the important part. And we'll figure out how to monetize
George Garrastegui, Jr.:that, you know, with the support from other people to help fund
George Garrastegui, Jr.:this or just allow people to be totally transparent and honest
George Garrastegui, Jr.:with what they can afford. You know, one of the things I did
George Garrastegui, Jr.:notice, right is this online platform that you're talking
George Garrastegui, Jr.:about focuses on product design, as that as a very specific type
George Garrastegui, Jr.:of design, right, not advertising, not graphic design.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:What was the decision making process that took you to go to
George Garrastegui, Jr.:that specific route, when you're looking to give more people
George Garrastegui, Jr.:access to the industry.
Ritesh Gupta:So number one, it was a space where I had a lot of
Ritesh Gupta:experience, I built my first app with a really awesome set of
Ritesh Gupta:folks that I knew from college a long time ago, I knew I loved
Ritesh Gupta:working with engineers, and I learned I knew I loved UI. And
Ritesh Gupta:I've been kind of doing that through all my experiences
Ritesh Gupta:through that as well. Number two, I knew that there was based
Ritesh Gupta:on the data that there was a really poor level of
Ritesh Gupta:representation from people of color within the Digital Product
Ritesh Gupta:Design Space, specifically in the US. And I also knew that a
Ritesh Gupta:lot of digital product designers can make a decent amount of
Ritesh Gupta:money doing it. There's obvious value to digital product design.
Ritesh Gupta:It's a core part of the product, and not to intellectualize it or
Ritesh Gupta:get whacked poetic or something. But I really wanted to have the
Ritesh Gupta:products that we use every day, be built by people who also use
Ritesh Gupta:the products every day. And I wanted there to be more
Ritesh Gupta:representation specifically within that space. And then the
Ritesh Gupta:kind of cherry on top was once I started sharing the idea around
Ritesh Gupta:with folks, they really love it, too. I knew that I had a lot of
Ritesh Gupta:folks on my network that were down to come aboard and speak.
Ritesh Gupta:And I also knew that there's people really cheering for me
Ritesh Gupta:from the sidelines, even people who aren't digital product
Ritesh Gupta:designers. So it was all of that kind of validation that helped
Ritesh Gupta:me kind of be interested in doing this first, could I have
Ritesh Gupta:done a branding class? First? Sure, I have just as much
Ritesh Gupta:experience, you could argue if not more in that space. But I
Ritesh Gupta:had to make a decision. And I said, You know what, I'm going
Ritesh Gupta:to try digital product design for all of those reasons. And
Ritesh Gupta:what's great is that branding, has the process for me to choose
Ritesh Gupta:digital product design, I could have easily done branding, as
Ritesh Gupta:well. And I know just as many folks in that space, and have
Ritesh Gupta:been getting just as much support. And so I'm happy to say
Ritesh Gupta:that I'm very seriously considering doing other classes
Ritesh Gupta:outside of digital product design, including branding, and
Ritesh Gupta:other related fields. Well, that's
George Garrastegui, Jr.:great. One of the things that sometimes
George Garrastegui, Jr.:you have to make a decision, right, it allows us to be like,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:you know, sometimes the deadline is what makes us stop working.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:All right, we just we have to hand it in, we have to submit
George Garrastegui, Jr.:something, right. And making a decision, I think is like that
George Garrastegui, Jr.:is a really important one. Because I think the world we
George Garrastegui, Jr.:live in today, everything is kind of in our hands. So product
George Garrastegui, Jr.:based is is kind of maybe the first place we understand
George Garrastegui, Jr.:design. And then these other things are what are ancillary
George Garrastegui, Jr.:parts of it that we learn about later. But the intimacy that we
George Garrastegui, Jr.:have with our phones, or tablets or computers is really where
George Garrastegui, Jr.:design has its most impact.
Ritesh Gupta:The other thing I really cared about was being
Ritesh Gupta:really specific about the quote unquote, product market fit, if
Ritesh Gupta:you want to use that kind of like entrepreneurship lingo,
Ritesh Gupta:where I didn't want to drown in opportunity, in a way I didn't
Ritesh Gupta:want to, like just go so broad that people didn't really know
Ritesh Gupta:where this kind of school fit in. So it was really important
Ritesh Gupta:for me to see, let's say, okay, these are practical classes for
Ritesh Gupta:people of color. And they're for beginners and advanced folk. And
Ritesh Gupta:I want specifically to focus on a sliver of the creative
Ritesh Gupta:industry, I don't at this point, I'm not ready to be able to say,
Ritesh Gupta:these are practical classes for people of color, and their 10
Ritesh Gupta:week, creative classes on Zoom, I'm not ready to say that cast
Ritesh Gupta:that wide of a net, I wanted to be as specific as possible. And
Ritesh Gupta:as I'm getting more and more interest, and putting folks on
Ritesh Gupta:the waitlist for other classes, that helps me kind of manage the
Ritesh Gupta:growth.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:And that's smart. I think trying to
George Garrastegui, Jr.:tackle too much will just make this not feel impactful. And I
George Garrastegui, Jr.:think that's one of the things you keep on saying is right,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:like how in design, can you create impact. And I think
George Garrastegui, Jr.:focusing on something that maybe other people haven't is where
George Garrastegui, Jr.:you find your niche, and doesn't mean that you haven't done all
George Garrastegui, Jr.:these other things, obviously. But this is the opportunity that
George Garrastegui, Jr.:presents itself and make sure that you stand out. And I think
George Garrastegui, Jr.:the best part of that is the name and the idea that it's
George Garrastegui, Jr.:practical. It's about function, it's about making sure somebody
George Garrastegui, Jr.:either gets that interview understands how to connect with
George Garrastegui, Jr.:people, you know, learn something directly, right? It's
George Garrastegui, Jr.:not about theory, you know, it's not about this, right. And
George Garrastegui, Jr.:sometimes you just need that, that course that understanding
George Garrastegui, Jr.:that really just gives you that bridge, that connection to hear
George Garrastegui, Jr.:this is what can happen if you do these couple of steps, right.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:And sometimes practicality is is something that we don't always
George Garrastegui, Jr.:offer, you know, as an educator, right, we're kind of like,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:always wrapped up for me in the idea of there's practicality.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:But then there's also all these other, you know, soft things
George Garrastegui, Jr.:that are that are all worked together, right. And I think
George Garrastegui, Jr.:there's the focus that you started to bring up is to make
George Garrastegui, Jr.:sure that this is a specific thing that I'm talking about.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:And this is what you're going to get out of. And I think when you
George Garrastegui, Jr.:look at the website, and you and you read kind of you know, a
George Garrastegui, Jr.:little bit of the breakdown, there is clear goals and what
George Garrastegui, Jr.:you're going to achieve, which I think makes it very simple to
George Garrastegui, Jr.:understand why this is different and important for that group of
George Garrastegui, Jr.:people. So even though you know, we're saying that, right, and
George Garrastegui, Jr.:I'm an educator, right? And we're talking about how we like
George Garrastegui, Jr.:to teach, right? So I caught something on your on your write
George Garrastegui, Jr.:up, right? Like, hey, sure, we'll teach you this stuff in
George Garrastegui, Jr.:design school, but we'll also focus on the stuff that they
George Garrastegui, Jr.:don't teach you. So I know because there are many
George Garrastegui, Jr.:institutions where learning can't cover every nuance of the
George Garrastegui, Jr.:fast paced tech world. What do you think are some of the things
George Garrastegui, Jr.:that institutions in education really don't teach students?
Ritesh Gupta:So there's a there's a variety of things that
Ritesh Gupta:are in the useful school curriculum that I think are way
Ritesh Gupta:outside the way wheelhouse of a traditional design education.
Ritesh Gupta:First of all, all the classes are trying to center people of
Ritesh Gupta:color as much as possible. So we talked about typefaces earlier,
Ritesh Gupta:I want to challenge folks to be creating projects like for
Ritesh Gupta:example, an invoice that they can build other clients that
Ritesh Gupta:only uses typefaces from an identity that they identify
Ritesh Gupta:with. And I think having that nuance of the process is very
Ritesh Gupta:different from a traditional design school in that way. The
Ritesh Gupta:second thing is we're going to be teaching a lot of the
Ritesh Gupta:practical things like how to do deceptively simple things like
Ritesh Gupta:answering an email from a recruiter, the difference
Ritesh Gupta:between an external recruiter and an internal recruiter who
Ritesh Gupta:oftentimes have very different incentives for wanting to reach
Ritesh Gupta:out and hire you. I've been burned multiple times in the
Ritesh Gupta:past where I had dealt with a lot of predatory recruiters.
Ritesh Gupta:Well, where they'll ask me, How much money are you making right
Ritesh Gupta:now? Or like some other insignificant things that
Ritesh Gupta:actually make it worse for me, when I actually continue on in
Ritesh Gupta:the field, like when I continue on in the interview, and what
Ritesh Gupta:ends up happening is a lot of these predatory recruiters, they
Ritesh Gupta:end up asking a lot of folks like how much money they're
Ritesh Gupta:making just for research, they're not really interested in
Ritesh Gupta:hiring you or asking you questions that actually matter.
Ritesh Gupta:They're interested in doing research for themselves. And
Ritesh Gupta:once I realized that, I'm like, Shit, I'm going to tell as many
Ritesh Gupta:people as I can about this type of work that is happening in the
Ritesh Gupta:industry, that's predatory, but also racist, and excluding POC
Ritesh Gupta:and causing POC to when they are interested in pursuing a
Ritesh Gupta:creative field to get really turned off. So the
Ritesh Gupta:intersectionality, the responding to networking, reach
Ritesh Gupta:outs, and all that kind of stuff is all stuff that's
Ritesh Gupta:traditionally not covered, that we're able to cover with both
Ritesh Gupta:the guest speakers that are at the top of their game. For
Ritesh Gupta:example, Mitzi who works at Spotify, barman vet who leads
Ritesh Gupta:brand new, all these folks that can offer really practical info
Ritesh Gupta:on how to get a job. So for example, Armen, who knows about
Ritesh Gupta:literally every rebrand that's happened since he started, he
Ritesh Gupta:can offer really practical knowledge of what are some
Ritesh Gupta:people of color that you'd like to mention to the students who
Ritesh Gupta:have like really killer portfolios like, well, who, how
Ritesh Gupta:they branded themselves? And who do you like from a branding
Ritesh Gupta:point of view, Mitzi can walk through how she got her first
Ritesh Gupta:job, like at Spotify, and that's like, no feat, no simple feat.
Ritesh Gupta:She's also an incredible black woman, and like having students
Ritesh Gupta:be able to see that they're successful black women in the
Ritesh Gupta:tech space, doing creative work is really, really powerful. So
Ritesh Gupta:talking about having her talk about was the case study that
Ritesh Gupta:Spotify recruiters asked about, like, what were some of the
Ritesh Gupta:questions that that folks should prepare for? This kind of stuff
Ritesh Gupta:isn't really shown in an easy to access way on YouTube or
Ritesh Gupta:anywhere else, like this kind of knowledge should be pay what you
Ritesh Gupta:can, this type of thing should be available to as many folks as
Ritesh Gupta:possible now. So we're starting with these kind of 20 person
Ritesh Gupta:cohorts. But I would like to really expand this thing in a
Ritesh Gupta:really big way.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Wow, that definitely seems like
George Garrastegui, Jr.:something that just personal experience, is what's going to
George Garrastegui, Jr.:bring the elevation to what the the people who are part of this,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:you know, first cohort, the access to the people that you
George Garrastegui, Jr.:have, but also the experiences that they're able to bring, it's
George Garrastegui, Jr.:like a perfect moment of, you know, because you've been able
George Garrastegui, Jr.:to work together with so many larger companies and keep these
George Garrastegui, Jr.:relationships, because you have this ability to just kind of
George Garrastegui, Jr.:like innately cold call and ask the question, and some people
George Garrastegui, Jr.:are just too scared to ask, right? Because of fear of just
George Garrastegui, Jr.:not getting the right answer or fear of rejection. You know, you
George Garrastegui, Jr.:seem to just be like, well, if they say no, they say no, but
George Garrastegui, Jr.:I'm going to ask anyway, those are definitely, I think the
George Garrastegui, Jr.:benefits for something especially like this, that the
George Garrastegui, Jr.:practical nature is really going to come from that. Right. And I
George Garrastegui, Jr.:think like you said, that's probably the thing that most
George Garrastegui, Jr.:educational institutions can't offer. Because they're just
George Garrastegui, Jr.:systematically in a different mindset. They're not really
George Garrastegui, Jr.:coming from working individuals in the field at the moment, it's
George Garrastegui, Jr.:a little bit, you know, these people are a little bit
George Garrastegui, Jr.:distance, always good to have a little bit of both, like support
George Garrastegui, Jr.:from the people working in the industry currently. And then the
George Garrastegui, Jr.:traditional, a little bit more of just, you know, systems
George Garrastegui, Jr.:thinking that helps support some of those things. So considering,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:you know, obviously, we're talking about access and
George Garrastegui, Jr.:opportunity, you know, what other ways do you think the
George Garrastegui, Jr.:industry and schools can support this kind of education outside
George Garrastegui, Jr.:of the traditional systems?
Ritesh Gupta:Yeah, so And before I answer that question
Ritesh Gupta:directly, you're selling useful school great, like I want to
Ritesh Gupta:take the class like your if you want to sit in with when I'm
Ritesh Gupta:pitching sponsors like companies You want to sponsor and stuff?
Ritesh Gupta:You're more than welcome. Yeah, you're making this thing sound
Ritesh Gupta:great. We're hiring for you for sure. So I think there's a lot
Ritesh Gupta:of things that traditional institutions can do. There's a
Ritesh Gupta:really big need for us to rethink the entire curriculum
Ritesh Gupta:that we've been teaching for 50 plus years. So Dorita install is
Ritesh Gupta:doing some great work at OCAD. There are, there's a lot of
Ritesh Gupta:divestment and unlearning going on. In some of the Southern
Ritesh Gupta:California schools, there's a lot of interesting movements
Ritesh Gupta:going on. However, based on what I who I've spoken with, I've
Ritesh Gupta:been on multiple video chats. I know a lot of folks in the
Ritesh Gupta:future of design in higher education community. And these
Ritesh Gupta:are folks that are administrators, faculty,
Ritesh Gupta:members, professors, all they run the gamut, who want to
Ritesh Gupta:really actively change what we're teaching and everything.
Ritesh Gupta:And what what I'm realizing is, there's a really high number of
Ritesh Gupta:folks that are very resistant to the change. This is everything
Ritesh Gupta:from how we're teaching, to what we're teaching to who we're
Ritesh Gupta:centering. And a lot of folks within institutions not been
Ritesh Gupta:willing to move, much less move at the pace that we want to
Ritesh Gupta:happen. There are light at the end of the tunnel, like I said,
Ritesh Gupta:Dorita install, and a lot of other folks that are really
Ritesh Gupta:pushing, but there really has to be major changes. So what I
Ritesh Gupta:would recommend for some of the individuals that are working at
Ritesh Gupta:these institutions, especially the people of color, useful
Ritesh Gupta:schools here, like if you want to help out in any sort of way,
Ritesh Gupta:whether monetarily or or teach a class. That's obviously doors
Ritesh Gupta:are definitely open. I would obviously say like advocate very
Ritesh Gupta:strongly for unlearning, and redoing a curriculum, even if
Ritesh Gupta:you've done the same curriculum for even one or two semesters,
Ritesh Gupta:to have honest conversations with the graduates of the class
Ritesh Gupta:and ask them what are things that they wish were in the
Ritesh Gupta:curriculum? What are the things that they actually hated, don't
Ritesh Gupta:do it when the students are actually students, because
Ritesh Gupta:there's obviously conflict of interest. But when you're
Ritesh Gupta:talking to the alumni and people who just graduated, be a
Ritesh Gupta:steward, like, reach out to them and not in a in a non spammy
Ritesh Gupta:way. And make sure you're getting the really active
Ritesh Gupta:feedback. Because if we're not getting feedback from the people
Ritesh Gupta:who have gone through our classes or something, and we're
Ritesh Gupta:teaching design, we're hypocrites, we're, we're, if
Ritesh Gupta:we're not actually taking into account the feedback, and
Ritesh Gupta:everybody wants to do that, whether you're an artist who's
Ritesh Gupta:creating stuff at MoMA, or, or creating practical classes, you
Ritesh Gupta:want to be getting feedback from folks and getting a pulse. So if
Ritesh Gupta:you're not doing any of that, and you're not completely
Ritesh Gupta:fulfilling the loop, and just doing whatever curriculum, you
Ritesh Gupta:just no has been done, you're really doing yourself a
Ritesh Gupta:disservice. And the institution as well as the students
George Garrastegui, Jr.:agreed, I think there needs to be a lot
George Garrastegui, Jr.:of homework done for for people to do that. And I think part of
George Garrastegui, Jr.:that is, is to act like educators are not the the end
George Garrastegui, Jr.:all who know everything. There's always learning. I love that I
George Garrastegui, Jr.:learned from my students about some topics that are new, that I
George Garrastegui, Jr.:have no idea about, and they put me on, right, I think that is
George Garrastegui, Jr.:one of the best parts of being an educator is being accepting
George Garrastegui, Jr.:and willing to learn about this, because as the fast paced tech
George Garrastegui, Jr.:always changes, we're always not going to be the ones who
George Garrastegui, Jr.:understand that the new things going on, because it's really
George Garrastegui, Jr.:not created for us. It's created for that younger generation who
George Garrastegui, Jr.:is actively pushing it working on it. And they're doing
George Garrastegui, Jr.:iterations, right? Like, you know, when you hit when you talk
George Garrastegui, Jr.:about Spotify, right? Don't they talk about like, every two
George Garrastegui, Jr.:weeks, they're just doing updates, things that you don't
George Garrastegui, Jr.:even notice are happening. They're doing it because
George Garrastegui, Jr.:they're, they're understanding users and adjusting for that,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:right. So I think for us in that fast paced world, we're not
George Garrastegui, Jr.:going to work at the speed of every two weeks. But the idea
George Garrastegui, Jr.:that we do need that feedback, and we do need to consider
George Garrastegui, Jr.:adjustments and nuances, and it's tough. But I think that we
George Garrastegui, Jr.:got to go back to the idea of why we're doing it in the first
George Garrastegui, Jr.:place, is to make students prepared for what they're going
George Garrastegui, Jr.:to be dealing with. If we do that. I think that puts us in a
George Garrastegui, Jr.:better position.
Ritesh Gupta:Absolutely. And I would also say that radical
Ritesh Gupta:change on the financial end has to has to be done on the
Ritesh Gupta:institutional end as well. Of course, there's loans, many of
Ritesh Gupta:them are predatory. There are income share agreements, where
Ritesh Gupta:you don't pay a single dime in the beginning and then after you
Ritesh Gupta:graduate and get a job you end up paying some of that money
Ritesh Gupta:back. Those are also relatively unregulated and and predatory.
Ritesh Gupta:And so what I'd like to see is more models that are alternative
Ritesh Gupta:versions of payment that aren't so predatory, because being able
Ritesh Gupta:to do that is going to be attractive is going to give
Ritesh Gupta:institutions, similar application pools that useful
Ritesh Gupta:school has were because we have that financial barrier,
Ritesh Gupta:essentially eliminated. And it's truly putting the power in the
Ritesh Gupta:hands of the individuals. With the of course, the support from
Ritesh Gupta:sponsors and individual contributors, were able to
Ritesh Gupta:attract heavily marginalized and deeply underrepresented
Ritesh Gupta:populations to be part of useful school. And we're welcoming all
Ritesh Gupta:ages as well as as well as identities, which is really
Ritesh Gupta:exciting. So what I'm seeing in the applicant base on useful
Ritesh Gupta:school is, is a whole different world from the applicant pool in
Ritesh Gupta:the public data that I'm seeing in a lot of a CAD design
Ritesh Gupta:schools, it is a it is a totally different ballgame, which is
Ritesh Gupta:very exciting for us. So school, to be able to help some of these
Ritesh Gupta:a cat schools conquer some of these challenges, that there
Ritesh Gupta:there is room for each of us to play. But there is so much value
Ritesh Gupta:in us working together and helping solve a lot of these
Ritesh Gupta:problems that have traditionally not been solved.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:And I think that's that's part of the
George Garrastegui, Jr.:point. I think, usually, entities like this have been
George Garrastegui, Jr.:pitted against each other. It's either or, and I think it's
George Garrastegui, Jr.:it's, it's great to consider this as an end, you know, that
George Garrastegui, Jr.:that's going to give a more holistic approach to any of
George Garrastegui, Jr.:these people doing this is to understand history to understand
George Garrastegui, Jr.:current, you know, trends and events. And I think working
George Garrastegui, Jr.:together like that is going to make one just the students, you
George Garrastegui, Jr.:know, people learning, you know, more effective at their jobs and
George Garrastegui, Jr.:actually enjoy it right and not feel like they went to school
George Garrastegui, Jr.:spent all this money on something that's already
George Garrastegui, Jr.:outdated. So as we're starting to, to end up, I have a couple
George Garrastegui, Jr.:final questions. As a designer, what are you still inspired by,
Ritesh Gupta:I'm still really inspired by a lot of the apps
Ritesh Gupta:and websites that are making, making interesting waves in the
Ritesh Gupta:in the impact space. So an example of an app that I've
Ritesh Gupta:recently come to fall in love with, is called Be My Eyes. And
Ritesh Gupta:essentially, what b My eyes is doing is connecting blind folk,
Ritesh Gupta:with people who can see to help the blind folk achieve some sort
Ritesh Gupta:of task. So the way it works is that a blind person will sign up
Ritesh Gupta:on the app. And then on the other side, a person who is able
Ritesh Gupta:to see signs up on the app. And whenever a blind individual
Ritesh Gupta:needs help putting up a picture or reading a menu or reading a
Ritesh Gupta:recipe, they put a call out to all the folks in the Be My Eyes
Ritesh Gupta:community, of which there's hundreds of 1000s. And the first
Ritesh Gupta:person to respond, gets to have a call with that individual.
Ritesh Gupta:Now, what's interesting about it, is that there's way more
Ritesh Gupta:people that are willing to help that than people that need help,
Ritesh Gupta:currently, so what's happening is, there's a lot of excitement
Ritesh Gupta:for the person who can see, to be at ready at a moment's notice
Ritesh Gupta:and like swipe the notification when there's a call to like
Ritesh Gupta:really help out. And so what I really love about it is, it's
Ritesh Gupta:not a crazy technology, it's pairing individuals together
Ritesh Gupta:that that need it. And there's excitement from the people who
Ritesh Gupta:are able bodied, to like help. So that's like one example It
Ritesh Gupta:looks so there's tons of them. Some are on Shark Tank, some are
Ritesh Gupta:that I've seen like online, but like these types of companies
Ritesh Gupta:are ones that people love working at because it has so
Ritesh Gupta:much staying power. And like they're really helping solve a
Ritesh Gupta:problem. So I'm really inspired whenever I see products and apps
Ritesh Gupta:like that, because it re energizes the people that I'm
Ritesh Gupta:working with and gives maybe engineers or designers a new
Ritesh Gupta:perspective on something that they might have gotten stuck on
Ritesh Gupta:in the past, they get reinvigorated. And they really
Ritesh Gupta:love solving these types of problems. And you can make money
Ritesh Gupta:doing this type of stuff, you can make money running these
Ritesh Gupta:types of companies. So it's really important for you, as in
Ritesh Gupta:the audience who's listening to not only come up with an idea,
Ritesh Gupta:but come up with the business plan, come up with a business
Ritesh Gupta:model that you think could actually support it, rather than
Ritesh Gupta:only relying on Angel investors or VC money to like give you
Ritesh Gupta:money, try to start making money immediately. Rather than waiting
Ritesh Gupta:for millions and millions of folks to get on the app like
Ritesh Gupta:that's one thing that I get really excited about is apps and
Ritesh Gupta:startups that are able to monetize and make impact and not
Ritesh Gupta:rely on external funding to grow in a big way. Now, I'm not
Ritesh Gupta:saying useful school is going to turn away investors or anything
Ritesh Gupta:like that. So if you're listening, I'm super open to
Ritesh Gupta:having that conversation. But I think there's really something
Ritesh Gupta:really interesting about having a person of color, create
Ritesh Gupta:something with very, very little monetary resources, put it out
Ritesh Gupta:into the world and just check out the reaction and that's
Ritesh Gupta:essential. What I did, I announced useful school in
Ritesh Gupta:December. And because of the traction on LinkedIn, and, and
Ritesh Gupta:on Instagram, and what the emails that I've been getting,
Ritesh Gupta:that really energized me, and it wasn't a lot of monetary
Ritesh Gupta:contribution that I had to make in the initial in the initial
Ritesh Gupta:phase. So that's what gets me really excited, low effort, high
Ritesh Gupta:impact. Now, useful school is very high effort at this point,
Ritesh Gupta:but starting out like the nugget and starting to put the idea
Ritesh Gupta:together low, low effort,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:and I think that that's just kind of
George Garrastegui, Jr.:like, you know, how we need to think about it. So you know, you
George Garrastegui, Jr.:do a lot of different things. You're, you're a founder of a
George Garrastegui, Jr.:company, you're volunteers, you're you're sitting down and
George Garrastegui, Jr.:watching Mark Cuban and Shark Tank and looking at who to cold
George Garrastegui, Jr.:call next. But let me ask you what part of any of these things
George Garrastegui, Jr.:were part of that process do you still struggle with,
Ritesh Gupta:I would say the part of the process that I get
Ritesh Gupta:struggle with is not the creative one. In terms of like
Ritesh Gupta:building something, or optimizing something, it's
Ritesh Gupta:actually getting paid. So I've been burned multiple times in
Ritesh Gupta:the past, of doing the work, above and beyond what was agreed
Ritesh Gupta:to, and not getting paid. And I've had to come up with
Ritesh Gupta:creative ways to get paid. So an example of that is half my
Ritesh Gupta:upfront half money when I'm halfway done. And oftentimes, I
Ritesh Gupta:will beat the deadline that they that they put out for me. So if
Ritesh Gupta:it's due, if it's due in a couple of weeks, I'll do in one
Ritesh Gupta:week. And that way, they get really even more excited and
Ritesh Gupta:saying, Wow, I can't believe I just saved a week, yeah, I'll
Ritesh Gupta:pay you the rest of the money, or creating a fake email that's
Ritesh Gupta:like accounting at whatever. And it's run by me, but I'll just
Ritesh Gupta:reach out to the person say like, Hey, like following up
Ritesh Gupta:here on the account fortyish. Like, can you please remit
Ritesh Gupta:payment, that kind of thing. So there's like, interesting ways
Ritesh Gupta:that like, folks can really be empowered to, like, get their
Ritesh Gupta:money and get paid. And so I really, obviously, always think
Ritesh Gupta:about creative ways to like get paid, but I, I do not do any
Ritesh Gupta:more projects where I don't get paid at least half upfront,
Ritesh Gupta:because the incentives are aligned, I don't get ghosted by
Ritesh Gupta:the client, or whoever it might be, or the project doesn't take
Ritesh Gupta:like way longer. And if not have no no fault of my own, or like
Ritesh Gupta:any of the things that like occur, like, if you're not
Ritesh Gupta:willing to pay me, before I start the work even half or a
Ritesh Gupta:third or something, I know something's up like you're
Ritesh Gupta:either not trusting of me, or like you don't believe in the
Ritesh Gupta:work output where I haven't done a good enough job like selling
Ritesh Gupta:myself, or I haven't done a good enough job proving the value or
Ritesh Gupta:the speed or what you're going to get. So it's a really big
Ritesh Gupta:signal to me that like, we need to jump on another call. So
Ritesh Gupta:let's just talk straight up. And like having all of that stuff be
Ritesh Gupta:within the lane of within the lane of money has really forced
Ritesh Gupta:me to not only level up my game, creative creatively, but also
Ritesh Gupta:selling myself doing better reach out emails, following up
Ritesh Gupta:and making it really easy for a creator to pay. So I would or a
Ritesh Gupta:client to pay. So I would, I would say that yeah, the getting
Ritesh Gupta:paid is something that I can always be working on. Ever since
Ritesh Gupta:I like did some of these things that I had mentioned, I haven't
Ritesh Gupta:had a single client be have an issue paying or anything like
Ritesh Gupta:that. And that's been I've been really fortunate. But that the
Ritesh Gupta:payment stuff is something I definitely struggled with a
Ritesh Gupta:little bit in the past.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Yeah, and thank you for bringing that
George Garrastegui, Jr.:up. Because I think that's one of those things that we really
George Garrastegui, Jr.:don't talk about the idea of, you know, it's doing the work,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:it's doing it on time, it's your reputation and things like that,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:but then it's getting paid, right, we do this for, you know,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:some type of exchange. And usually it's money, you know, so
George Garrastegui, Jr.:thank you for just, you know, sharing with the fact that
George Garrastegui, Jr.:that's always something that is a struggle, even the people who
George Garrastegui, Jr.:are doing, you know, big time branding, projects, things like
George Garrastegui, Jr.:that, it still happens. So I think those little nuggets of
George Garrastegui, Jr.:creating a fake account, as an accountant is is great. I'm
George Garrastegui, Jr.:going to share that with my portfolio students. The other
Ritesh Gupta:thing I want to kind of talk about is if if
Ritesh Gupta:you're on the client side, you want to make sure that you if
Ritesh Gupta:you're not in control of the budget, like I've been in the
Ritesh Gupta:situation before, like if you're not in control of the budget,
Ritesh Gupta:and somebody else's, you need to make sure that you're not the
Ritesh Gupta:middle person, where you're just you're, you're neither of the
Ritesh Gupta:folks the person who's paying and the person who did the work
Ritesh Gupta:is like you don't you do not like keep them separate and be
Ritesh Gupta:the middle person because then it reflects on you. You want to
Ritesh Gupta:just connect them directly and let them handle that stuff
Ritesh Gupta:because you do not want to be associated with anything related
Ritesh Gupta:to the finances you want to be associated with the actual
Ritesh Gupta:creativity in the output of work. So that's another thing I
Ritesh Gupta:would love for up and comers to to really make sure that they're
Ritesh Gupta:they're dealing with and like they know that they're very,
Ritesh Gupta:very clear payments. For the person on the client side, like
Ritesh Gupta:that you're working with, and very clear payment terms for the
Ritesh Gupta:agency, and you immediately when the project starts, put them
Ritesh Gupta:together and get out of that conversation, because you do not
Ritesh Gupta:want to associate with it,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:you know that, then you're just be
George Garrastegui, Jr.:caught in the middle and always, you know, never really having
George Garrastegui, Jr.:control of any of that. So no need for that. So, finally, what
George Garrastegui, Jr.:advice would you give a younger teach entering the industry
George Garrastegui, Jr.:today?
Ritesh Gupta:I would say, and this is this is difficult. But I
Ritesh Gupta:would say two things. Number one, there's not going to be a
Ritesh Gupta:lot of people that necessarily look like you. But like, you can
Ritesh Gupta:definitely be part of that change. And that could actually
Ritesh Gupta:affect your mental health. So I've had mental health issues,
Ritesh Gupta:you should be aware reteach, like, in five years, like,
Ritesh Gupta:you're gonna have these, not everything's gonna be perfect
Ritesh Gupta:and easy as like college or internships or something you're
Ritesh Gupta:going to struggle with physically or mentally, and you
Ritesh Gupta:need to have that support, you need to make sure you have built
Ritesh Gupta:a support system around you, whether it's mentors, the
Ritesh Gupta:institutions, that you're part of anything. That's number one.
Ritesh Gupta:And number two, I would say that you want to work backwards, like
Ritesh Gupta:what you want to be able to say, in like five years that you
Ritesh Gupta:accomplish that what would make you really happy and just work
Ritesh Gupta:backwards from there. So for example, like, if you're, if
Ritesh Gupta:you'd love to work at a mission driven startup, or for like an
Ritesh Gupta:online school or something, do what you can, today to like,
Ritesh Gupta:plan out what what that what those things you're going to
Ritesh Gupta:build in order to like make that happen. And if that requires you
Ritesh Gupta:going to the company or the organization or the institution
Ritesh Gupta:and say like, Hey, I'm not asking for a job right now. But
Ritesh Gupta:in five years, I would love to work with you. I know, it's a
Ritesh Gupta:really weird thing to say, but I'm reaching out now. And I just
Ritesh Gupta:want to know, what are some of the steps you recommend I do to
Ritesh Gupta:like, get the opportunity to work with you? And it's a very
Ritesh Gupta:heavy question. And it's a question that really puts a lot
Ritesh Gupta:of onus on the person answering it. So I don't like recommend
Ritesh Gupta:just going out to everybody, like 1000s of people just
Ritesh Gupta:answering this, because it'd be mayhem. But if there's a couple
Ritesh Gupta:people that you really, really want to work for or with reach
Ritesh Gupta:out to them and say like, Hey, like I'm interested in
Ritesh Gupta:potentially working with you. Again, I'm not looking for a job
Ritesh Gupta:right now. Because oftentimes, people the first time they they
Ritesh Gupta:reach out to somebody, they're like, Hey, do you have a job? Or
Ritesh Gupta:like, can I work for you? And sure, I understand like that,
Ritesh Gupta:that mentality. But you should also be realistic of like, Hey,
Ritesh Gupta:if you want to eventually be a senior product designer
Ritesh Gupta:somewhere, and right now you're like a junior product designer,
Ritesh Gupta:it's gonna take a little bit of time to like, get to that point.
Ritesh Gupta:So why not like made the connection? Ask them for like
Ritesh Gupta:some checklists. Or even better, say, like, hey, via email don't
Ritesh Gupta:even require like a chat a lot. Oftentimes, people like asked
Ritesh Gupta:like, Hey, can you hop on a phone call, and like, the person
Ritesh Gupta:has no idea what that phone calls about, just say, via
Ritesh Gupta:email, or via LinkedIn message be like, Hey, these are a couple
Ritesh Gupta:of steps that I'm thinking about, like, creating a new logo
Ritesh Gupta:for myself that like, feels like really optimistic to match my
Ritesh Gupta:brand. Create, like something on Webflow, like, create a
Ritesh Gupta:portfolio on Webflow that has a couple of my key projects with a
Ritesh Gupta:case study. And then ask the person who might be helping you
Ritesh Gupta:like, Hey, do you think that's enough? And if not, they're
Ritesh Gupta:probably going to, like, give you a couple extra tips, or give
Ritesh Gupta:you at least some resource to like look at. And then the best
Ritesh Gupta:thing about it is, once you're done finishing all that stuff,
Ritesh Gupta:you go back to that person and be like, Hey, I did it all. Now
Ritesh Gupta:what type of thing and and that person gave you the signal and
Ritesh Gupta:not just be like, Hey, if you do these couple of things, you're
Ritesh Gupta:going to be closer to working with me. And so then it's like,
Ritesh Gupta:Oh, shit. Now the now this potential person could have
Ritesh Gupta:given you enough advice, or they're going to tell you, Hey,
Ritesh Gupta:I actually want you to do now these next couple of things. And
Ritesh Gupta:so what ends up happening is you now have a potential mentor, and
Ritesh Gupta:is relatively low effort on like both sides, you're you're not
Ritesh Gupta:doing like these video chats, you're not doing like these
Ritesh Gupta:onerous things, you're like very clear on what you have to do.
Ritesh Gupta:You're obviously doing most of the work. And eventually, that
Ritesh Gupta:person might become a sponsor for you, they might say like,
Ritesh Gupta:Hey, Spotify, or Nike or Apple or whatever, I've been working
Ritesh Gupta:with this person, just like casually mentoring them for the
Ritesh Gupta:last like, six months, six weeks, year, or whatever. And
Ritesh Gupta:they've actually done a lot of stuff that I recommend they do.
Ritesh Gupta:And so I know that they can get the work done, and they can get
Ritesh Gupta:it on time. They might be a little wet behind the ears or,
Ritesh Gupta:for lack of better term. But I think we should give this person
Ritesh Gupta:a shot. Or I think we should give this person a shot. So
Ritesh Gupta:that's like something I would love to see happen more often on
Ritesh Gupta:to change the relationship and change the dialogue between the
Ritesh Gupta:person who wants to get from point A to point B, and the
Ritesh Gupta:person who's already at B and wants to help that person who
Ritesh Gupta:who's starting at A. So those are the couple of things that I
Ritesh Gupta:would say to reteach.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:Nice. It seems like once again,
George Garrastegui, Jr.:practical advice for something and putting a lot of the effort
George Garrastegui, Jr.:on the person who's wanting it to gain the information and
George Garrastegui, Jr.:making it easier for that, like you said, that person who's in
George Garrastegui, Jr.:point B, to oblige, where it's if it's low stakes, it's a lot
George Garrastegui, Jr.:easier. And I think one of the things I want to take away was
George Garrastegui, Jr.:this cold call emails with a question, giving that idea that
George Garrastegui, Jr.:it needs to be answered either negative or positive. But it
George Garrastegui, Jr.:needs to be answered. Right, which I think sometimes we just
George Garrastegui, Jr.:open ended don't really give the other person a job to do.
George Garrastegui, Jr.:They'll just be like, okay, cool. It was a good email I got
George Garrastegui, Jr.:and you don't know how to respond. Giving them a clear
George Garrastegui, Jr.:question gives us the opportunity to actually create a
George Garrastegui, Jr.:one on one. Well, I have they asked me a question I have to
George Garrastegui, Jr.:answer. Even if I don't want to be part of this, at least I'm
George Garrastegui, Jr.:going to give them that, that satisfaction. And so lastly, can
George Garrastegui, Jr.:you tell our listeners where they can find out more about
George Garrastegui, Jr.:useful school you and ways they can support?
Ritesh Gupta:Yeah, absolutely. So you can find useful school on
Ritesh Gupta:the interwebs. So we've got www useful school.com Super easy.
Ritesh Gupta:And Instagram is useful. school.com, D O T CLM. And if
Ritesh Gupta:they want to reach out to me directly, they can just hit me
Ritesh Gupta:up via email, reteach ri T sh, at useful school calm. And if
Ritesh Gupta:any individuals want to do the following things I super welcome
Ritesh Gupta:it. So if there's any potential students that want to be part of
Ritesh Gupta:useful school and take any of our classes, please don't
Ritesh Gupta:hesitate to apply. And let me know like what kind of classes
Ritesh Gupta:you're interested in. Number two, if you're fortunate enough
Ritesh Gupta:to have some some money to contribute, consider going to
Ritesh Gupta:our gift page and and contributing, you're going to be
Ritesh Gupta:able to sponsor the folks who aren't able to pay and you're
Ritesh Gupta:going to be really making a huge difference in somebody's life.
Ritesh Gupta:And then number three, if you're a part of a company that is
Ritesh Gupta:super Designer Friendly, and very inclusive, and wants to
Ritesh Gupta:become even more inclusive, then please consider sponsoring,
Ritesh Gupta:email me at reteach at useful to school.com for some really
Ritesh Gupta:interesting partnership ideas that I have, that a lot of other
Ritesh Gupta:companies have been really interested in. And I'm really
Ritesh Gupta:glad to say that you'd be joining the ranks of Mother
Ritesh Gupta:design standards, manual order, and a lot of others that are
Ritesh Gupta:going to be posted and publicized very, very soon. So
Ritesh Gupta:you're going to be in really great company. Outside of that.
Ritesh Gupta:If you have anything. Any advice for me, feel free to hit me up
Ritesh Gupta:in the DMS either personally on LinkedIn, on Instagram, or email
Ritesh Gupta:me
George Garrastegui, Jr.:perfect. I'll put all that info in the
George Garrastegui, Jr.:show notes so people can reach out to you. You know, when this
George Garrastegui, Jr.:comes up, you know, I am so glad to get you on the podcast
George Garrastegui, Jr.:because this is something that I focus on as well, you know, acts
George Garrastegui, Jr.:as an opportunity for emerging designers. I was so intrigued by
George Garrastegui, Jr.:your concept. And of course, its practical nature. We need to
George Garrastegui, Jr.:meet creatives, where they are and offer them opportunities to
George Garrastegui, Jr.:grow and expand. And I see useful as an outlet to have that
George Garrastegui, Jr.:happen. You know, I hope that anyone who looks to dive into
George Garrastegui, Jr.:product design, go check out the opportunity. It's a beautiful
George Garrastegui, Jr.:website, but it's also an impactful one to really get you
George Garrastegui, Jr.:to understand and delve into this world. And I know there's
George Garrastegui, Jr.:going to be future cohorts. Once again reteach thanks again for
George Garrastegui, Jr.:this chat and I look forward to hearing about all the great
George Garrastegui, Jr.:outcomes what's to come from useful.
Ritesh Gupta:Thank you so much. Talk to you soon.