We are HERE! w/ Dr. Cheryl D. Miller - Part 2

Cheryl Miller: 00:00:10

I say it all the time. Jay Z, Tyler, Perry, Oprah, they all say the same thing. You gotta find your voice, you gotta find your gifts. And in my case, you gotta wait it out.

I'm an overnight success that took 50 years. Don't get twisted with me. I'm an old lady, right? I'm in lifetime achievement space. That means that I had to stick with it.

I couldn't give up at year five. I couldn't give up at year 10. I had to press through year 20. I even paused on a marathon race and had kids.

You know, you have to stick with your vision and goal that God gave you.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:00:51

Welcome Back to part two of our special episode with Dr. Cheryl Miller on the Works in Process podcast.

Let's continue our in depth conversation as we'll be discussing Cheryl's enduring impact and legacy in design. If you haven't listened to part one, go back and check it out. You missed a lot. Now let's jump back into our fascinating conversation. Hope you enjoy.

Cheryl Miller: 00:01:14

Anybody that knows me knows that I've really been in it to win the war. Which means you gotta win a lot of battles, right? Well, taking a journey, taking nothing in return.

Because the truth of it is, unless I'm Michelle Obama, okay, and Judge Jackson just got a memoir, what kind of royalties am I really going to get here? Not enough to retire on. So what's important is I got to tell the story. Pray for the best.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:01:40

So your work involves documentation, writing historical records, archiving, keeping the legacy of bipoc creators alive, Right? When did you realize this was a calling or a passion? Or did you just know was the next step in who Sheryl Miller is?

Cheryl Miller: 00:01:55

Because I've been there and I know what's in the card catalog. That's step one. Let me pull out the card catalog and let me go through Dorothy's friends who are deceased.

And knowing that There are only four or five women and 40 some odd men, Grandpa great uncle boxes of what was left are in family. The stories and somebody's attic in somebody's basement.

And heirs don't dare touch these boxes because they might not have understood what Grandpa great uncle did, but they know not to throw the box away.

So because I knew many of them on the list by age, and then when I got involved in Dorothy's work, I been galloping through dead designer obituaries to find families to contribute to the history of black graphic design archives at Stanford. Stanford has given me a handshake of commitment. It might take a minute, but if I find collections to Bring them in.

And so I meet like I just met Reynold Ruffin's family. I collected his work before he passed. I jumped out to Long Island. Reynolds wife was a painter, beautiful, impressionist.

And they had a show out one of the museums in Long Island. I met his family, his children, and they're so grateful that I came for his boxes. Dorothy's niece, I found her through a funeral home.

And when I found her, she had inherited everything. She's the rightful heir to all of everything. Dorothy left and she said Dorothy moved in with her last 10 years of her life and gave her everything.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:03:48

Right.

Cheryl Miller: 00:03:49

When I found her, she's been so grateful because she did not know what to do with these boxes.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:03:55

Right.

Cheryl Miller: 00:03:56

I've honored Dorothy's family by caring. It's sacred work, George. You know, I'm a clergy woman too. And you just don't, you don't go into this space ill hearted, disingenuous.

You're talking and working with families who've lost very precious loved ones. As a clergy woman, I've sat with you while you died. I've held your hand, right. I grieve with folks, I mourn with you.

I walk to the grave site and pulling out these boxes, you have to do it with care, listen, be patient and you safeguard the memory of the dead. I don't know another designer in my community that can do that except the Reverend Dr.

Sheldon Miller, which I never proselytize, I never talk about it, I just don't. But to go get these collections requires like I met Selden Dick's family and wife.

We went down Pierre Bowden had a, an exhibit at University of Maryland Eastern Shore. Got a chance to meet her. I didn't know that she would soon pass. And I worked with her and her daughter were bringing in his work.

Families don't always know because they were cutting edge trailblazers. They didn't all understand and they were back in the generation. Were you studying art? What good is that? Go get a real job.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:05:17

Right.

Cheryl Miller: 00:05:19

So it's like dismantling an altar work or like in New York, all of the Episcopal churches that turned into nightclubs back in Basquiat Day, Studio 54, I was there. Jerome Miller design was there down the street and they would dismantle. I think it was called the Light or something.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:05:38

A big limelight on 6th Avenue.

Cheryl Miller: 00:05:40

Right. So dismantling is sacred. Just like putting up is sacred. Dismantling is sacred. And Dorothy's box and her materials.

So when I started writing about her and the introduction And Sasha over at Cooper Union was a great source to tell me to go look at New York Special Library collections. All of her writings with Eli Cantor about this show are there. Her own box, Royal typewriter manuscripts and carbon copies and handwritten notes.

The woman's been in my office telling. Miss, you tell a story right, and.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:06:18

You do it so well.

Cheryl Miller: 00:06:19

Thank you.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:06:20

You tell the legacy history of Dorothy Hayes, who, interestingly enough, was a teacher at the school that I teach right now, back when it was called New York City Technical College. It's very interesting that a lot of times they don't connect to two colleges, because now we're called New York City College Technology.

And I think you do her work, her legacy and her box or boxes, probably so many boxes.

Cheryl Miller: 00:06:43

So many boxes.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:06:44

You do it so much justice in that second chapter. And I think anybody who wants to unf.

Understand just who Dorothy is needs to deep dive into that so many times, because the more you read it, the more you understand that intricacy of what she was doing and care that you were able to do in writing about her and her work and her value, I think is amazing.

Cheryl Miller: 00:07:07

She was meticulous in leaving records, and they were so detailed that it would require someone who had the heart to handle her artifacts in the same manner that she put them together. She wanted them to be found and found intact. The detailing and then my eye for scholarship.

I read between the lines of her writings, and you're doing research. I'm like, oh, Cheryl, she's going to send you down a rabbit hole. Let me give you an example. In her box, she's got.

And I wrote about it in poster house, an article about her diary that I worked with. She kept a travelogue and a journey of this entire show. She is writing her journey of putting the show together. There's some documents in it.

She says, oh, my God, I just learned Moselle passed away. So she's writing her diary. She's typing it. Royalty. She says, I had to go find the Amsterdam News to find out if this was true.

the Amsterdam News, December: 1970

So I'm digging through Amsterdam News to find the story of Moselle Thompson. She sent me down a rabbit hole. And then I found Moselle Thompson and that story, which is like, oh, my gosh. I found his biographer in Pittsburgh.

I can't call his name. Bless his heart. He's a DJ who was Moselle Thomas groupie and collects his album covers. And he did a major show in Pittsburgh. I found him.

He gave me newspaper articles. He told me the story. He sent me a newspaper for the show that was developed.

This guy's story about designing for RC Records, the story of Moselle, the depth of it I would not have discovered if I didn't read Dorothy's journal about one of the designers died, right? And then I'm like, let me go and find out who this is. So I throw out a little something, and every takes it and goes on with it.

I'm like, yeah, okay, you want this story, you got to go find DJ that collects his album, collects 78. Stuff finds me, man. I get stuff. Don't forget me. I'm here, too. You'll be surprised every week. Don't forget me. I was here, too.

And I'm like, you were right. Don't forget me. Since you're cataloging everybody, don't forget me. I was here, too. And I'm like, okay, I found you. I found you. I found one guy.

I can't call his name. It's in my notes and in my lectures. My husband went to a men's club, and this speaker comes.

He's talking about is community service and planning work in Connecticut. And so my husband's involved with this guy, starts a presentation about a project that's doing community housing.

Before he gets going, he talks about how he was a packaging designer in New York City. Philip Prince. I said, well, I'm saying to myself, he opens up about his current work. We're talking about how he was a package designer in New York.

And Philip brings me this newspaper. He's a forgotten. I did not know. The man is out of my dispensation in the 90s, right? Okay. I can't call his name. I had to go to my notes.

m. When I start talking about: 1990

Midtown with me. I'm like, okay. How did I miss you?

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:11:07

I know. It's such a. Like hearing these stories and hearing you know, one. I think there's a physicality to it, right?

Physical boxes combing through, reading, handwriting, things like that.

I'm wondering, with this new shift to digital and documentation digitally, what are tools that we should start to embrace with this new way of maybe shifting digital.

Cheryl Miller: 00:11:31

Documentation, saving the artifacts so you can digitize all you want. That's why they have special collections and archives. Saving the archives is your original source. So you digitize it.

Make it a hologram, do whatever you're going to do with it. But what's precious is the original artifact. And the book is loaded with original artifacts. Don't you love it?

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:11:53

Of course it is.

Cheryl Miller: 00:11:54

Stuff you haven't seen. There's a guy, I can't get him to do more because he's older now, but he was Jim Collier. He was Dorothy's photographer.

He's got all of it in black and white. So these few black and white artifacts I have, and a few that I've gotten permission in my articles online. He was the exhibit's photographer.

He's an older gentleman now. He's not gonna go in his garage through the boxes to go look for the original contacts.

But there's some things of this show that are missing that I've tried to get. Collier's contact sheets. He photographed the whole show the night of and all of that. So there's some new photos there. You see our ancestors.

You see George Olden, you see Herbal Allen. And then I'm able to say Herb Leballin was an ally to black designers. Who knew that I had to connect these dots, right? Because we had allies.

AIGA documents from: 1990

The record keeping. I want you know, I had some friends with this. Not everybody was old school. It's only white.

I made sure for record keeping, everybody that was published, no oral tradition. If you aren't in these documents, I don't record you. I want our community to know who the allies were. Okay, we had Mike, Seth and Steve.

And they came to the conversation with John Morning and myself. These are original artifacts and things from AIG and so forth. There's a rich history.

Before we get to the pandemic and hashtag WAPT or whatever, where are the black designers? At Fast company. A bold new initiative. I said, oh, right. So you want to know the fuel. There's a story, there's a history.

It's nothing old and new except social media took it out of the car catalog and brought it to this generation. I was there and my mind works just fine and so does my mouth. My back's another story. I end the stories because so many lives I've touched.

One of the things that I'm so excited about is Dorothy's story was recorded by the Japanese. I got the rights for the 49 black designers. This is the first record keeping in the appendix.

So even if you didn't want to read the book, I'm giving you your first history book and pictures. Christina helped me with that. It took a little doing. We petitioned the Japanese ID magazine several times.

Finally, what turned the key was an artifact. Sasha had pointed me to the special collections at New York Library and there was original letter from the Japanese to Eli Cantor.

Can we publish the show? A: 1969

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:15:10

Right.

Cheryl Miller: 00:15:11

They covered the story in full color. It's a part of Japanese.

But nonetheless I had the original letter of request and we sent it back and I said you asked and I'm asking you to allow me to have the rights to republish this history for my community.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:15:29

Right.

Cheryl Miller: 00:15:30

And so that's what turned the key so that I could get the permission. I got a one time usage. That's all I need. I don't need anything else.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:15:38

There's a couple of lasting questions I want to talk to you about this idea of what you think legacy is.

I've been lucky enough to interview a lot of people who've taken up the mantle, continuing what you've started, following your lead on pushing the envelope. We've written books, hosted conferences. Our small business owners are groundbreaking podcasters.

Guests like Jennifer White Johnson in episode 14, Theresa Moses in episode 15 and 31, Jacinda Walker in episode 22, Maurice Cherry in episode 24, and Amari Souza in episode 19. I mention all these names because they've always included you in the conversations about pushing the needle forward.

I want to share a quote with you and get your reaction. Amari Suzy reflected on the overwhelming success of his first State of Black Design conference. Surpassing all expectations.

He recalled a pivotal conversation with you, challenging him to move beyond the discussions and into solutions.

Omari Souza: 00:16:34

He says the event ended up being far more successful than I thought it was going to be. I was expecting at most maybe having 100 people and I was expecting that 100 to mainly be Texas State students.

We had about 3,600 people that registered for the events once that happened. Getting feedback from colleagues and members of the administration of my department asking what my next plans were.

Them telling me how it made them feel to see the event. A zoom meeting that I had with Cheryl Miller where she challenged me.

She told me that she felt like having an event where people were simply talking about issues wasn't enough. And if we were going to talk, we should also try to Find a way to create some solutions.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:17:14

Can you speak more about that?

Cheryl Miller: 00:17:16

And I can. In light of the Supreme Court ruling for DEI and affirmative action. I started in this when there was no affirmative action, when there was no favor.

And in the: 1968

I'm right back at the beginning. And so the 40 acres in the mule was given and no more handouts and expecting.

The Art Directors Club, the Type Directors Club, the aiga, the Copywriters Club. These are all the things that would help Rita Sue Siegel, Roz Goldfarb.

These were your agencies to expect anybody to go into what we call social responsibility. Because this is where all of this started, affirmative action. These were the players in New York.

These were the gatekeepers for opportunity, for education, for jobs. Martin Luther King, when they look, I've been through the whole thing. George Floyd when they did, I said, well, I got the playbook for this.

I've been here. There's nothing different. I'm all the way. But that's why we have to vote.

I won't talk to you about deep personal convictions or politics, but I grew up with women and wire hangers. So the answer to your question, nobody is going to help us now.

And there are enough of us who can reach back and do the work for ourselves, like Amari and Jacinda.

And so there are enough of us who have wherewithal, who can raise up and educate and we got jobs, we're managers, those that have graduate degrees, professorships, et cetera. There are enough of us who can take care of ourselves. But will we look back and do that work?

Or are we all going to resolve all the way back to where Shermilla started and everybody run around now in New York looking for ducking and dodging pandemic. I grew up with the evening news and George Wallace and German shepherds and water hoses in Vietnam at my dinner table. Are you hearing me?

We have to take care of ourselves. And those of us who can must do. I'm not going to be here to see that. The only thing I can tell you is those who can do do it.

We have to be equipped, can't be like those designers that used to come back to me in Washington. We have to come out of this fog of lack of awareness. I am grateful. I'm with Howard University. When I did the research for the Book.

I was at UT Austin, and at the beginning of the book, I thanked them. They bought me out, told me I couldn't teach.

They were going to give me a fellowship to do the research, and I said, okay, I'll disengage from all my universities, but I have to stay with Howard. I'm willing. As long as they want me, they have me. It's a place where I can work or community college, any place that wants me.

I only go by invitation now. If you want me, I'll come. I've had enough of knocking on doors. I've had enough of striving. I've had enough of breaking down doors to get in.

And don't call me if you really don't want change. That's a waste of time calling me. You want to get some work done, you call me. So I'm not on the short list for you.

Use my name to be on your website for your branding. I'm not going to do you any favor like that. You need to take me down off your website. If you want something done, you call me.

At this point, I'm only addressing where I'm wanted. Where's this vision where already program has figured out? Yeah. Okay. So we still have commitment to a strategic plan for diversity.

They really want me because I've lived a whole life in design space that doesn't want me. I don't have time for that.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:21:21

Right, Right.

Cheryl Miller: 00:21:23

Or do I have. It was brutal. I don't want anybody to go through what I've been through. So at this point, I need someone down the road.

The only way I'm coming is if you invite me. You really want me to get some work done? And mostly just to love the kids and teach them how to write, give them some history.

And I thank God, you know, I always have a model. Design doesn't change, technology does. So I've got a fair amount of being able to get through Adobe After Effects.

But y'all are getting out there now. And I'm like, you know what? Y'all are going out there. Starship Galactica. You're going to have to go out there without me.

When we're getting down the road, though, where I'm like, oh, I had somebody ask me, well, what do you see next? I said, oh, I see you seeing next. That's what I see. I see you seeing next. I said, I saw next then, and that's what we're living in now.

I said, no, I see you seeing next.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:22:12

Can you identify some of these who are These next leaders that we need to know about who are carrying that torch today?

Cheryl Miller: 00:22:19

Well, you name them, and then I'm going to be down in Texas for a design residency. And I just sent a title for the lecture. Let's see.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:22:30

Getting a scoop right now.

Cheryl Miller: 00:22:32

Yeah, I'm gonna give you the scoop. I owe you a few things. I sent this this morning because they want to know. Trey Seals, A Case Study in Envisioning Legacy. Okay, so listen to me.

This is the morning lecture in a description, so I'm just proposing it. They haven't said Miller. This is good, but I hope they will agree with me. Trey Seals, A Case Study in Envisioning Legacy in a Graduation Dilemma.

Told not to design a project for Miller's Pratt graduate degree, she was charged to make a contribution to the industry. Miller wrote the thesis, Transcending the Problems of the Black Graphic Designer to Success in the Marketplace.

Miller's thesis scholarship envisioned, took life of its own. Her subsequent trade articles and scholarship have intersected into the lives of countless designer. Trey Seals discovered Miller's articles.

He found Miller and asked her one question. And here we are today. See what happened next.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:23:50

Nice.

Cheryl Miller: 00:23:51

It's a Case Study in Envisioning Legacy.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:23:56

That's amazing.

Cheryl Miller: 00:23:57

One strain in my life, one angst. I just wanted to graduate. They told me I couldn't design my way out of it.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:24:08

Right now we're almost 40 years later.

Cheryl Miller: 00:24:11

rey, when he graduated in May: 2015

In it, she talked about how, like most industries, the design industry is white, male dominated, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The world continues to become more and more diverse and the industry needs to catch up. He writes this a few weeks after reading this article.

Then: 2016

This version was less analytical and was her way of passing the torch to the next generation of black designers. It made me want to figure out a way to somehow add diversity to the design industry. He finds me, he gets the article, and he says to me, Ms.

Miller, I got an idea. I said, an idea? What's that idea? Right? He says, I want to make fonts out of the civil rights as this is my call to action.

I mean, and the whole thing now that he lectures on and so forth, and I listened to him carefully and he was quick to take action on his vision. It's that kind of passion to one's gift and call. And one thing led to another.

And what really kind of opened the way, which I learned a lot about the young Gun. He won Young Gun. And his career has. It is what it is.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:25:48

It's skyrocketed.

Cheryl Miller: 00:25:49

Yes.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:25:50

Because he's amazing.

Cheryl Miller: 00:25:51

All he did, I take no ownership other than he read two articles and found me and gave me an idea and I said, oh, yo, you better go. You better go. Okay, he tapped, which is the same thing I did. Okay. You tap inside and find out what your gift is. Not everybody can do that.

When I think about my work in the life of others and how now that is spread into this prolific, dynamic volume of work and his mission. He embodies the visionary, but he's an example.

And I say to myself, something would have brought it out anyway, but I can't help but for the fact that I wrote a thesis, I wrote two articles, it intersected his life and he was unapologetic in finding me. Okay. And this is before you can find me on a website or anything like that. He acted on it.

But that's an example that I don't say, oh, my God, if I hadn't written an article, but if I had that journey. I'm not saying I'm the only thing that could have inspired him. No, because it's in him.

But the passing of the torch, the mantle of purpose and mission. He's the first one to call me auntie. I said, don't. Don't call me granny, Abuela or anything like that. Call me auntie.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:27:12

Trey has that delineation.

Cheryl Miller: 00:27:14

He's the first one. He called me auntie. And I relish in his success that he believed in his vision and idea.

And all he did was, you know, he came home and asked, auntie, what do you think? I said, you better go on. You better go on and go do that. Hurry before somebody else will.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:27:30

Right.

Cheryl Miller: 00:27:31

He tells the story. Would he have found somebody or something? Sure, sure. But it was a pleasure for him to have found my work in his life.

And the reclamation of telling the story creates the legacy of story.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:27:46

Yep.

Cheryl Miller: 00:27:47

Do you know how many people are of Milton Glazing? They're quick to tell you, oh, I am of. I am of Polish here. I am of. Who are we from? Slave artisan? Somebody tell us where we're from.

Read the autobiography of Malcolm X. Okay. This is how we got the Nation of Islam. You know, we need a history. Where are we from? Right. So to my community I'm trying to take.

Look, that's where we're from. That's why we're not recorded. You better go on and do you boo. And season of reparation has ended.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:28:23

Right?

Cheryl Miller: 00:28:23

We gotta get up and do it. Compete. You'll always hear me say, we gotta compete. May the best man or woman, they, he, she or otherwise, may the best one win.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:28:33

Right?

Cheryl Miller: 00:28:33

It's meritocracy.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:28:35

So with that, I mean, one, thank you for all of this. These nuggets of joy and happiness and information and history.

I think we sometimes forget that we're living with people who've been through so much and we need to one, I think, like Trey did tap and kind of start to connect with these people and figure out how they can support and even just the little pat in the back. Like you said, go do what you gotta do. Right? It's good to hear that. And you've been doing this way longer than so many of us.

I want to ask, has the industry changed in your mind? And if so, how? And if not, what do we still need to do?

Cheryl Miller: 00:29:25

It's changing. It's changing because, my honestly, the gatekeepers of the obstacles are dying out.

Pandemic wiped out a whole lot of people, and it just cleared the pathway.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:29:40

Okay.

Cheryl Miller: 00:29:42

Even celebrities that I grew up with, Tito Jackson, he's gone. You know, so. So a lot of purging, and there's such a new metropolis that I'm really impressed with the AIGA lineup.

I've never seen it so uniquely diverse.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:30:05

Nice.

Cheryl Miller: 00:30:06

And it's beautiful. I'm like, oh, my goodness. So honestly, any old guard that could be holding, and it's kind of in our DNA that get rid of it.

And so unfortunately, errors must end and purge out. And so I only say, just don't repeat history and don't repeat history. I don't want any of us to go through and know your history.

My book is, oh, if I see another fast company, bold new. No, honey, there's nothing bold and new about this. I got some old timers been digging this up for a long time. Okay.

And giving the credit to the elders. So if you get something, that's why I'm like, you know, I love it like in the orange book. Okay. Writing is important in the orange book.

The 12 notations, footnotes. I call it the orange Bible. Yes, that's the best one. 12 notations. Cheryl Miller. Okay.

I'm so honored that you almost can't tell the story without a primary footnote from Cheryl Miller. And so writing has Been a weapon and reclamation and attribution to your writing. And your scholarship moves the story forward.

Okay, so with that, you see, we didn't have a genealogy like that which would help you, even in New York, would open the door. Well, you know, I went to school here, and this one was this. And I'm from that, this, that, and the third. Right? So our family trees.

We are from slavery. They took our names, changed our names, throw us off of a boat. I've tried to reclaim our story.

And what's unique is all of the scholarship that I found before me. Okay. When I. Oh, W.E.B. du Bois and the professor in Delaware, all these documents that I found, that tell me.

They straight up tell me the black designer came from West Africa.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:32:11

Right.

Cheryl Miller: 00:32:12

The slave artisan came from West Africa, came from Ghana. And I'm like, oh. And that's where it intersected. Well, I know that. I know that because I grew up in it.

My family, like, my mom likes to just say this. Bring my family them. Okay. You know? And I'm like, okay, I knew it. And so all I had to do is go do the research. You know, I come from a tribe. My DNA.

Look at me. Do I look West African? Well, I look Ghanaian, but I have Ghanaian DNA. I had to figure that out.

And I found my tribe in Ghana and found they were artisan and they're the coffin makers and my cousin and all of this, who I am, has come to the table of. Well, Cheryl, you know it. You. Now, you got to prove it. You got to do the scholarship.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:32:59

Thank you. Thank you.

Cheryl Miller: 00:33:00

I'm here to tell a story. So guess what? I want us to know where we came from.

Not everybody came from Pentagram, not everybody came from Paul Rand, not everybody came from Uncle Milti. I love them like everybody, but that's always been a calling card in New York.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:33:17

Agreed.

Cheryl Miller: 00:33:18

It has. I mean, I'm sorry that.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:33:21

Don't be sorry.

Cheryl Miller: 00:33:22

Huh?

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:33:23

Don't be sorry.

Cheryl Miller: 00:33:24

Yeah. Those are rules of engagement around New York. Come on. Come on. So my book is to help us know who we are.

And I'm just one of the eldest alive to tell the story and do the work.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:33:38

And I thank you for that. I thank you for the work that you've put in. I thank you for the legacy you have. I thank you for creating the footnotes that we can build upon.

I think that is such a valuable thing that a bunch of us can call you Auntie, a bunch of us can call you Cheryl, and live to the expectations that you set forth.

Cheryl Miller: 00:34:01

Just do What Papa said exactly, you're going to do it. If you're going to do it, be the best. And Papa, like I say, I don't know whether I'm the best, but I sure tried my best.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:34:11

Definitely. I say, more than your best.

Cheryl Miller: 00:34:14

I did what I could. And it's amazing I did what I could. Always tell everybody I did what I could when it was an error of. I can't. So if I.

If I struggle through and if it looks like anything I got out of this, imagine now with open doors and open hearts, you should be able to get a lot of stuff done that I couldn't. So. And I jump on myself. Maurice asked me, is there anything that you'd want to do? A bucket list. And I thought about it.

You know, he did 10 years of revision Path and he, he said, miller, I want you to do 500 number episode 500, I'm 248 and episode 500. And his last question, is it anything you want? No, I said no. I said, I think I'm good. I saw a job yesterday a lot of times, a lot.

You know, on my LinkedIn, I always go right here, right here. I post jobs that, oh, if I were young and times were different, oh, I'd like to do that job. Oh, I'd like to do that job.

I saw a job yesterday and I said, oh, I could do that job. It was a Yale. Yale museum wanted a publications manager, right? Somebody. Yeah, those books. Well, that's what I do. I teach books.

I know how to make books. I told you, book design, you know, that's what it resolved to after broadcast those books.

And that's what I teach out at Art center with Tracy Shipment. We teach, you know, real book design. I saw. Yeah. Yale's looking for museum publication manager, right?

Work with the press and work with this and deliverable, you know, like this little studio. I'm like, this is studio, right? And I said, cheryl, oh, wouldn't that be wonderful? And I said, cheryl, you are not going to New Haven every morning.

I love that day has gone. You go find somebody. Go put, put, put the job on your LinkedIn and find one of your senior book designers that can do it and give them a referral.

But I know how to design a book. Okay, you want me to listen, I make books. I write books.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:36:10

We don't need you doing that anymore.

Cheryl Miller: 00:36:11

No, I don't think so.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:36:12

I want you to. We got you doing what you're supposed to be doing.

Cheryl Miller: 00:36:15

Yeah, I'm doing what I'm supp I do have a kind of a bucket list with it, though. It feels like a lot of times. A lot of times the inspiration and the gift and what to do comes in a feeling.

I feel like I want to be in an institution where I'm doing my work and my office is down the hall, kind of like a permanent in residence, you know, Like Nikki Giovanni was down at University of Virginia, you know? And it's like when she finally left at 82. And Toni Morrison, you know, when they finally left at 82, why are you leaving? It's like I'm saying.

She's saying to you all, if you can't write a poem by now, I'm going to go home and retire on the porch. So I'm like, yeah, that kind of in. I'm doing my work, you know, I might have a class.

Kids can come in and talk to me, ask me their questions, quit their projects. I teach my class. I got the office. But y'all, you're running it. I'm just. I'm the future. I'm the future professor. I'm hanging out.

When I show up, I want the corner office on the end. Oh, Dr. Mills on the end. She'll love you. Go on down there. She'll tell you. She'll tell you. It'll be all right in the buying by. Go down and see her.

Oh, you need some help with your writing? Okay, go down there and talk to me. You need some networking? Okay, Go down and find out what she's working on.

She's always working on something, and she's always cooking on something. You know, go down, see what the research is, and that's kind of like what I'm feeling. Some kind of place where I can kind of be like that, you know?

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:37:43

Nice.

Cheryl Miller: 00:37:44

Yeah. So if you hear about that, I'll let you know. Yeah, well, let them know, because I told you, I'm not knocking on any doors I want.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:37:50

All right? You got to be invited.

Cheryl Miller: 00:37:52

You got to be invited. Got to be invited.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:37:54

So one last question. One last question, right? Based on this conversation, if you can pick a future guest of mine, who would it be? But one question. Should I ask them?

Cheryl Miller: 00:38:04

Have you talked to Trey?

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:38:06

Not yet.

Cheryl Miller: 00:38:07

Talk to Trey.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:38:09

What questions did I ask him? From the auntie?

Cheryl Miller: 00:38:11

Tell Trey for me. Okay. Auntie says, ask how you doing? Because he's too busy to answer my text, answer my Instagram. When I get him.

When I get him, I say, you know, I am not your secretary. People call me. You seem to be the only one that can get Trey. I said, yeah, I have a knack for it. I got to put out all points bulletin for him.

So you tell Trey for me, answer the phone when auntie. You see auntie's text, okay? Auntie doesn't text much. But if she wants something, okay, if.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:38:43

She wants something, pick up the phone.

Cheryl Miller: 00:38:45

Pick up the phone. And it's usually Trey. Somebody's calling, looking for you want to engage. You want to this, that and the other. I said, trey, I am not your secretary.

I have my own team over here doing Cheryl Miller. I said, you don't have the corner office down on my suite. So. I love him. I'm so proud. I'm proud of all of them.

And he's one as an example of legacy, the impartation, you know, the inspiration. And beyond the fact, his work is gorgeous. Design delicacy. Design candy is what I call it. Design candy, okay? And what's so good about that?

Here, here's the point. When you really do you. If anybody tries to duplicate, they complicate. See, he's in a lane all by himself.

And that's what I strive for with my students. I'm in a lane all by myself. There is not another book where black designers are. There's not another story. There's not another trend.

You got to get in that zone of first rights. There may be others. You'll never be the only one. You want to be the first one. And that's what I push. Whatever that brilliance is, it belongs to you.

It's God given. It's up to you to multiply. And that's what he did.

And if anybody comes along, who will come along and try to do the same thing and have any respect, no one.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:40:11

Nobody.

Cheryl Miller: 00:40:12

He stand alone. He's a solo in a choir. I say it all the time. Jay Z, Tyler Perry, Oprah. They all say the same thing. You gotta find your voice.

You gotta find your gifts. And in my case, you gotta wait it out. I'm an overnight success that took 50 years. Don't get twisted with me. I'm an old lady.

I'm in lifetime achievement space. That means that I had to stick with it. I couldn't give up at year five. I couldn't give up at year 10. I had to press through year 20.

I even paused on a marathon race and had kids. You have to stick with your vision and goal that God gave you. And the only reason I'm here. And I had to wait my turn. I know that's painful.

I had to wait. Can you Imagine I had to wait my turn, George. And I can't tell you how many queries have been denied, how many book proposals. No, Ms. Miller.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:41:11

What a shame.

Cheryl Miller: 00:41:12

So we thank Princeton Architectural Press. I'm one of the hardest. I'm one of the hardest working selling authors because I'm not going out of print.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:41:24

We don't need that.

Cheryl Miller: 00:41:26

No, this book's not going out of print. This is like what business folks call rain.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:41:31

It's gonna have legs. It's gonna keep on coming up.

Cheryl Miller: 00:41:33

Yeah. And what I'm so excited about, folks haven't even seen the book yet.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:41:36

I know.

Cheryl Miller: 00:41:37

I want you to buy two books because I can tell you now, this is the kind of book that you will mark up, chew up, fold up, and then you ruin the book. It's like you're going to eat the book.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:41:52

My PDF is already messed up, like, and I just.

Cheryl Miller: 00:41:55

Right. And yeah, you're going to want one. A first edition. And especially if you see me at a book signing, you know, to keep. To keep.

I hope this one was a little different than all my other ones. And more and more, I'm talking and doing a podcast. You're getting more and more of Cheryl Miller's Legacy of Love.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:42:15

That's what it is. Cheryl, I think I thank you so much for this in depth conversation. I can't believe how many nuggets we have in here.

I think your legacy and your advocacy and your humbleness and your honesty and your love for what you do is what shows up in this book. I love that I can hear your voice when I read this book.

Cheryl Miller: 00:42:38

Do you. Did you like it?

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:42:39

I felt like you were just in the same room telling me this story, and I felt like I was just listening to the book versus reading the book and it made the book feel so much smoother as a, as an intake. Right. And the connection that you can see with your advocacy of what's happening. Right.

Like you said, the assassination of King, these, all these, these moments and your, your history is happening alongside of all of that.

And so you're able to take in this historical record with what you've been going through and really personalize struggles that have only been told to us through, through books or documentaries. There's a personalization here. And hold on, because now there's a fire truck, like, right outside my, my house as I'm talking.

And of course, whenever I need to talk about something like this, that's when New York comes into play and goes, I'm here.

Cheryl Miller: 00:43:35

Listen, we don't have to look any further. I'm here and I'm hoping people will really read it. Really read it after you scan it, like, oh, you know, I got it and I'm signed. What?

Really read it and put a period to this missing in action thing. Let's move on. I answer you, I answer your questions and now we're finished, right? My book, we're finished.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:43:57

Agree?

Cheryl Miller: 00:43:58

Wander around lost. Agreed.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:44:01

Thank you so much, Dr. Miller. This has been an amazing conversation. Is there anything else you want to tell where they can find out more about the book?

Cheryl Miller: 00:44:09

Anybody who wants me to visit, we're working through AIGA chapters or you want me at your school, we'll zoom in. A book. A book lecture. I thank God for Miller. You know, he's doing business and he's doing the business of being here with me. All right, so he'll.

He'll manage us and put the events in getting us all around. So I'm just appreciative. I'm appreciative to everybody who's been an ally and those who have loved me through an incredible journey.

So with that, I'm going to come out there and see you and bring you some books and bring you lots of love.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:44:42

I love it.

Cheryl Miller: 00:44:43

I love it. Just do me, boo.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:44:46

Well, thank you for all the support. Thank you for all the advocacy. Thank you for what you do. This was an amazing conversation. This has been works in process.

Cheryl Miller: 00:44:55

Okay, my love, see you soon.

George Garrastegui Jr.: 00:44:59

Oh, wow. Can't believe we just finished part two. Please listen to both parts to get this really in depth conversation with Dr. Shel Miller.

It has been a blast to talk to her about her legacy, her book, and the impact she's had on the design field. Not even in just the documentation, but how many people she's inspired to do work that chronicles the black indigenous people of color experience.

I'm so honored to have spoken to her and to also have her as part of living history. Hope you enjoyed it. The Works in Process podcast has been created by me, George Garaci Jr.

And the content, transcriptions and research have been done by OR Schifflinger and Stephanie Arazzo. And this episode has been edited by RJ Basilio.

You can find the Works in Process podcast on all media platforms such as Apple, Spotify, Google and Amazon. And if you like the episode, please feel free to give us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

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Follow us on Instagram or LinkedIn to stay up to date on new releases of every episode. And as always, I appreciate you taking the journey with me, and I hope you enjoyed this conversation.

Until next time, remember that your work is never final. It's always a works in process.